Master Browser problem

I do not work on the Network side but I need to get our network guys to solve
a Master Browser problem, hopefully one of you can assist by giving me the
correct questions to ask.

I have read many documents today, all of which seem to suggest that WINS
should still be employed to ensure the Master Browser stores the correct
info. We have a large WAN, many locations and subnets, using server 2000,
win XP Pro for pc's and utilising Active Directory. The network guys insist
they do not need to use WINS. So, here is my question - is it possible to
properly control a large WAN such as ours without using WINS. Some sites
have static IP address's whilst some use DHCP.

I hope someone can guide me in the correct direction, even if it means the
network guys are right :0P

"jcw 1545" <jcw (E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:12985B31-901E-4A4C-9DF7-(E-Mail Removed)...
>I do not work on the Network side but I need to get our network guys to
>solve
> a Master Browser problem, hopefully one of you can assist by giving me the
> correct questions to ask.
>
> I have read many documents today, all of which seem to suggest that WINS
> should still be employed to ensure the Master Browser stores the correct
> info. We have a large WAN, many locations and subnets, using server 2000,
> win XP Pro for pc's and utilising Active Directory. The network guys
> insist
> they do not need to use WINS. So, here is my question - is it possible to
> properly control a large WAN such as ours without using WINS. Some sites
> have static IP address's whilst some use DHCP.
>
> I hope someone can guide me in the correct direction, even if it means the
> network guys are right :0P

You don't _need_ WINS. What are you trying to do that requires WINS?

Matt

Sure you don't need WINS, you could use lmhosts files but
WINS is a dynamic form of lmhosts files. Multi-subnet
browsing requires Netbios name resolution in order to
work. Setting up WINS is about the easiest way to
acheive browsing across multiple subnets.

"Matt Anderson" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message news:
>
> "jcw 1545" <jcw (E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:
> >I do not work on the Network side but I need to get our network guys
to
> >solve
> > a Master Browser problem, hopefully one of you can assist by giving
me the
> > correct questions to ask.
> >
> > I have read many documents today, all of which seem to suggest that
WINS
> > should still be employed to ensure the Master Browser stores the
correct
> > info. We have a large WAN, many locations and subnets, using server
2000,
> > win XP Pro for pc's and utilising Active Directory. The network
guys
> > insist
> > they do not need to use WINS. So, here is my question - is it
possible to
> > properly control a large WAN such as ours without using WINS. Some
sites
> > have static IP address's whilst some use DHCP.
> >
> > I hope someone can guide me in the correct direction, even if it
means the
> > network guys are right :0P
>
> You don't _need_ WINS. What are you trying to do that requires WINS?

"Michael Giorgio - MS MVP" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in
message news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> Sure you don't need WINS, you could use lmhosts files but
> WINS is a dynamic form of lmhosts files. Multi-subnet
> browsing requires Netbios name resolution in order to
> work. Setting up WINS is about the easiest way to
> acheive browsing across multiple subnets.
>
Right... if they need browsing across subnets i agree.

Matt
MCT, MCSE

Yes, WINS is probably the easiest way to get this to work unless
they are forwarding broadcast packets across the routers which
will result in browse problems in either case or lmhosts files..

Browsing across subnets requires at least 1 domain in place. The
PDC or PDC emulator is responsible for gathering the list; it acts
as the DMB or domain master browser and the SMB by default
for it's given endpoint. The SMB (segment master browser) will
gather the local list from the client machines and forward the local
list to the DMB along with retreive the full list from the DMB and
passing back to the client machines. Each machine will send a host
name announcement packet to the SMB during the boot process at
increasing intervals finally leveling off at every 12 minutes.. The SMBs
cummunicate using Netbios which needs Netbios name resolution in
place. Each DMB will register a Netbios domain name 1b with WINS
along with quering other 1b entries in order to get their list. Having
said all of this if the routers are forwarding broadcasts the host name
announcement packets will be forwarded to remote subnets causing
browse problems along with a browse error every 5 minutes in the
event viewer (IIRC event id 8003/8005).

"jcw 1545" <jcw (E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message news:
>I do not work on the Network side but I need to get our network guys to
>solve
> a Master Browser problem, hopefully one of you can assist by giving me the
> correct questions to ask.
>
> I have read many documents today, all of which seem to suggest that WINS
> should still be employed to ensure the Master Browser stores the correct
> info. We have a large WAN, many locations and subnets, using server 2000,
> win XP Pro for pc's and utilising Active Directory. The network guys
> insist
> they do not need to use WINS. So, here is my question - is it possible to
> properly control a large WAN such as ours without using WINS. Some sites
> have static IP address's whilst some use DHCP.
>
> I hope someone can guide me in the correct direction, even if it means the
> network guys are right :0P

Hi Michael (and Matt)

As I said in my original post, I don't work with networks. However I think
I can see where our network guys are going wrong. I KNOW we do not use
lmhost files, I have checked, and as for broadcasting packets - I don't think
so.

Therefore, I think there is some confusion with DMB and SMB; I say this
because one of our network guys says we have a DMB for each of our locations.
Now having the responses to my original post, I can ask more pertinant
questions.

Thanks for the response, I guess I will be posting again before we resolve
this problem.

Jeff

"Michael Giorgio - MVP" wrote:

> Yes, WINS is probably the easiest way to get this to work unless
> they are forwarding broadcast packets across the routers which
> will result in browse problems in either case or lmhosts files..
>
> Browsing across subnets requires at least 1 domain in place. The
> PDC or PDC emulator is responsible for gathering the list; it acts
> as the DMB or domain master browser and the SMB by default
> for it's given endpoint. The SMB (segment master browser) will
> gather the local list from the client machines and forward the local
> list to the DMB along with retreive the full list from the DMB and
> passing back to the client machines. Each machine will send a host
> name announcement packet to the SMB during the boot process at
> increasing intervals finally leveling off at every 12 minutes.. The SMBs
> cummunicate using Netbios which needs Netbios name resolution in
> place. Each DMB will register a Netbios domain name 1b with WINS
> along with quering other 1b entries in order to get their list. Having
> said all of this if the routers are forwarding broadcasts the host name
> announcement packets will be forwarded to remote subnets causing
> browse problems along with a browse error every 5 minutes in the
> event viewer (IIRC event id 8003/8005).
>
<snip my original question and babble>

If you have a domain on each subnet you do have a
DMB on each subnet. Each domain has 1 PDC or
PDC emulator which also acts as the DMB. The
DCs in each locatioin will have a lmhosts files locally
in the c:\%systemdirectory%/system32/drivers/etc.

"jcw 1545" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message news:
> Hi Michael (and Matt)
>
> As I said in my original post, I don't work with networks. However I
think
> I can see where our network guys are going wrong. I KNOW we do not
use
> lmhost files, I have checked, and as for broadcasting packets - I
don't think
> so.
>
> Therefore, I think there is some confusion with DMB and SMB; I say
this
> because one of our network guys says we have a DMB for each of our
locations.
> Now having the responses to my original post, I can ask more
pertinant
> questions.
>
> Thanks for the response, I guess I will be posting again before we
resolve
> this problem.
>
> Jeff
>
> "Michael Giorgio - MVP" wrote:
>
> > Yes, WINS is probably the easiest way to get this to work unless
> > they are forwarding broadcast packets across the routers which
> > will result in browse problems in either case or lmhosts files..
> >
> > Browsing across subnets requires at least 1 domain in place. The
> > PDC or PDC emulator is responsible for gathering the list; it acts
> > as the DMB or domain master browser and the SMB by default
> > for it's given endpoint. The SMB (segment master browser) will
> > gather the local list from the client machines and forward the local
> > list to the DMB along with retreive the full list from the DMB and
> > passing back to the client machines. Each machine will send a host
> > name announcement packet to the SMB during the boot process at
> > increasing intervals finally leveling off at every 12 minutes.. The
SMBs
> > cummunicate using Netbios which needs Netbios name resolution in
> > place. Each DMB will register a Netbios domain name 1b with WINS
> > along with quering other 1b entries in order to get their list.
Having
> > said all of this if the routers are forwarding broadcasts the host
name
> > announcement packets will be forwarded to remote subnets causing
> > browse problems along with a browse error every 5 minutes in the
> > event viewer (IIRC event id 8003/8005).
> >
> <snip my original question and babble>

Michael

Sorry I did not make our situation clear, we only have the one domain over
many subnets; each subnet is at a different location. I would expect, if I
have understood your previous reply, each subnet to have a SMB which would
exchange information with the DMB.

As a matter of interest a friend advised me to use Browmon to examine the
Domain; when the domain was selected the lower left of the window gives a
list of servers; this has confused me further because it appears to show all
servers, pc's and laptop's that are on the domain at that time. Are these
computers that are able to act as a master browser or are they computers
which 'are' acting as a master browser?

Thanks

Jeff

"Michael Giorgio - MS MVP" wrote:

> If you have a domain on each subnet you do have a
> DMB on each subnet. Each domain has 1 PDC or
> PDC emulator which also acts as the DMB. The
> DCs in each locatioin will have a lmhosts files locally
> in the c:\%systemdirectory%/system32/drivers/etc.
>
> "jcw 1545" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message news:
> > Hi Michael (and Matt)
> >
> > As I said in my original post, I don't work with networks. However I
> think
> > I can see where our network guys are going wrong. I KNOW we do not
> use
> > lmhost files, I have checked, and as for broadcasting packets - I
> don't think
> > so.
> >
> > Therefore, I think there is some confusion with DMB and SMB; I say
> this
> > because one of our network guys says we have a DMB for each of our
> locations.
> > Now having the responses to my original post, I can ask more
> pertinant
> > questions.
> >
> > Thanks for the response, I guess I will be posting again before we
> resolve
> > this problem.
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> > "Michael Giorgio - MVP" wrote:
> >
> > > Yes, WINS is probably the easiest way to get this to work unless
> > > they are forwarding broadcast packets across the routers which
> > > will result in browse problems in either case or lmhosts files..
> > >
> > > Browsing across subnets requires at least 1 domain in place. The
> > > PDC or PDC emulator is responsible for gathering the list; it acts
> > > as the DMB or domain master browser and the SMB by default
> > > for it's given endpoint. The SMB (segment master browser) will
> > > gather the local list from the client machines and forward the local
> > > list to the DMB along with retreive the full list from the DMB and
> > > passing back to the client machines. Each machine will send a host
> > > name announcement packet to the SMB during the boot process at
> > > increasing intervals finally leveling off at every 12 minutes.. The
> SMBs
> > > cummunicate using Netbios which needs Netbios name resolution in
> > > place. Each DMB will register a Netbios domain name 1b with WINS
> > > along with quering other 1b entries in order to get their list.
> Having
> > > said all of this if the routers are forwarding broadcasts the host
> name
> > > announcement packets will be forwarded to remote subnets causing
> > > browse problems along with a browse error every 5 minutes in the
> > > event viewer (IIRC event id 8003/8005).
> > >
> > <snip my original question and babble>
>
>
>

Hi Jcw,


"jcw 1545" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message news:
> Michael
>
> Sorry I did not make our situation clear, we only have the one domain
over
> many subnets; each subnet is at a different location. I would expect,
if I
> have understood your previous reply, each subnet to have a SMB which
would
> exchange information with the DMB.

Okay then there is only 1 DMB that's the PDC. In theory there should be
1
SMB on each subnet reporting back to the DMB.

>
> As a matter of interest a friend advised me to use Browmon to examine
the
> Domain; when the domain was selected the lower left of the window
gives a
> list of servers; this has confused me further because it appears to
show all
> servers, pc's and laptop's that are on the domain at that time. Are
these
> computers that are able to act as a master browser or are they
computers
> which 'are' acting as a master browser?

All Windows machines by default can act as a master browser, not DMB
but SMB or BMB (backup master browser). A machine will become the
SMB when a browse election occurs. The following is used to determine
which machine becomes the SMB:

Information on Browser Operation
http://support.microsoft.com/support.../q102/8/78.asp

In an NT domain environment it's common for a W2k2 or higher machine
to force an election in attempt to become the SMB and actually win
because
of it's OS criteria this causes problems with BDCs which normally win
the
election; the result is a partial list where some machines are
registering with
the BDC and the others are registering with the W2k or higher machine..
Win 9x is also known for forcing an election and actually winning over
the
SMB causing problems. You can disable the computer browser service
on the W2k machine using the services applet and disable the same
service
on the Win 9x machines by editing the properties of the file and print
sharing
client.

Sorry, hope I don't offend anybody and I'm not trying to hi-jack this thread
but I believe I have a similar problem and I am evidently not understanding
browser roles in mixed mode NT4/WIN2003.
I have posted my scenario but if I may give a brief description
One domain, two subnets, all server and the majority of users are one static
subnet, second subnet is DHCP with no servers on it.
users on DHCP subnet can see brows list and can access resources from the
shares on the server but when trying to connect to desktop shares they get a
"permission" error. When you do the "net use " command to the same shared
resource it connect with no problem.
I believe I have only tried the "net use" to the IP and not the name.
I think my architecture is not kosher, does any one have any network design
recommendation in a mixed mode environment with two or more local subnets?

"Michael Giorgio - MS MVP" wrote:

> Hi Jcw,
>
>
> "jcw 1545" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message news:
> > Michael
> >
> > Sorry I did not make our situation clear, we only have the one domain
> over
> > many subnets; each subnet is at a different location. I would expect,
> if I
> > have understood your previous reply, each subnet to have a SMB which
> would
> > exchange information with the DMB.
>
> Okay then there is only 1 DMB that's the PDC. In theory there should be
> 1
> SMB on each subnet reporting back to the DMB.
>
> >
> > As a matter of interest a friend advised me to use Browmon to examine
> the
> > Domain; when the domain was selected the lower left of the window
> gives a
> > list of servers; this has confused me further because it appears to
> show all
> > servers, pc's and laptop's that are on the domain at that time. Are
> these
> > computers that are able to act as a master browser or are they
> computers
> > which 'are' acting as a master browser?
>
> All Windows machines by default can act as a master browser, not DMB
> but SMB or BMB (backup master browser). A machine will become the
> SMB when a browse election occurs. The following is used to determine
> which machine becomes the SMB:
>
> Information on Browser Operation
> http://support.microsoft.com/support.../q102/8/78.asp
>
> In an NT domain environment it's common for a W2k2 or higher machine
> to force an election in attempt to become the SMB and actually win
> because
> of it's OS criteria this causes problems with BDCs which normally win
> the
> election; the result is a partial list where some machines are
> registering with
> the BDC and the others are registering with the W2k or higher machine..
> Win 9x is also known for forcing an election and actually winning over
> the
> SMB causing problems. You can disable the computer browser service
> on the W2k machine using the services applet and disable the same
> service
> on the Win 9x machines by editing the properties of the file and print
> sharing
> client.
>
>
>