Managed HH to ADSL Conversion [Longish post]

I am currently using HH (with Freeserve Anytime) for internet access. The
setup is as follows: When HH was installed a couple of years ago the master
socket in the downstairs hall was replaced by the usual HH dummy master,
with existing telephone extension wiring wired into the back of it. The HH
box was installed in a upstairs office, with the supplied CAT5 (or whatever
it is) cable which joins it to the dummy master being routed inside stud
partitions and under the floorboards (I did the cable routing, BT made the
connections).

I am considering upgrading to ADSL - probably using PlusNet, since they
appear to offer a managed conversion so that HH can be re-instated if it all
goes pearshaped. Rather than using splitters, I would like to use a proper
ADSL master socket in the original master socket (currently HH dummy master)
position in the downstairs hallway - with the telephone extension cabling
wired into the back as before. I would like to use the existing CAT5 (or
whatever it is) HH cable to extend the ADSL socket to the upstairs office -
in the position currently occupied by the HH box.

I am proposing to supply my own ADSL router/modem (make/model not yet
decided) in order to share the ADSL connection between several PCs on a
network - replacing my existing ISDN router. I assume, therefore, that the
ADSL part of the installation will be classed as a self-install rather than
a BT install despite the fact that BT will need to come to remove the HH
kit?

Sorry for the long introduction, but it sets the scene for a few questions:

* When BT come to do the conversion, what type of replacement master socket
will they provide - will it be a pure PSTN type, or will it have PSTN and
ADSL outlets and an internal filter?

* will BT re-connect my existing extension wiring? [There seems to be a
suggestion on the PlusNet website that - for a BT install at any rate - they
disconnect the extension wiring from the old master and do not re-connect it
to the new one!]

* will BT be happy to leave the HH cable (routed through stud walls and
under floorboards) in place rather than needing to recover it? (presumably
they wouldn't *re-use* it for another customer)

* if so, is it suitable for extending the ADSL connection upstairs? [The
upstairs end currently has a pre-fitted plug on the end which plugs into the
HH box. Presumably I would have to cut this off and crone the cables into a
suitable outlet?] Is it just the incoming pair which needs to be extended
for ADSL?

One final question - for those of you still with me . . .
Apparently if you have a BT install (which I don't want - apart from the
removal of the HH kit) it comes in 2 flavours (and 2 prices!) - with a
contention ratio of 50:1 and an USB Modem for single computer use - or a
contention ratio of 20:1 and an ethernet router for use with a LAN.
Presumably with a self-install, there's nothing (either physically or
legally) to stop me from buying a cheaper 50:1 service, and still using a
router to share it across my LAN?

Many thanks for any information/advice you can provide.

--
Cheers,
Tim
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Snip<long post>

Sorry for the long introduction, but it sets the scene for a few questions:

* When BT come to do the conversion, what type of replacement master socket
will they provide - will it be a pure PSTN type, or will it have PSTN and
ADSL outlets and an internal filter?

If you are merely having the HH removed, then a normal pstn plate will be
fitted

* will BT re-connect my existing extension wiring? [There seems to be a
suggestion on the PlusNet website that - for a BT install at any rate -
they
disconnect the extension wiring from the old master and do not re-connect
it
to the new one!

Any extension wiring not fitted by them will be refitted but if it
subsequently proves to be faulty----They will charge to repair if applicable

* will BT be happy to leave the HH cable (routed through stud walls and
under floorboards) in place rather than needing to recover it? (presumably
they wouldn't *re-use* it for another customer)

Don't see why not....Be nice to engineer ;o)

* if so, is it suitable for extending the ADSL connection upstairs? [The
upstairs end currently has a pre-fitted plug on the end which plugs into the
HH box. Presumably I would have to cut this off and crone the cables into a
suitable outlet?] Is it just the incoming pair which needs to be extended
for ADSL?

You stated that you would like a adsl faceplate fitted...if you go this
route you will need to terminate the existing cable to the face plate by
either rj11/rj45 to plug into the main socket(2 ports, lh side rj11/45...rh
side pots), to pick up the incoming line,(which is filtered at the
faceplate) you also need an rj11 socket at the other end to plug in your
kit. It may be easier to use the old HH wiring to make an extension point,
wired into the pstn plate and a normal phone extension and use micro
filters..depends on cost/time/appearance etc.

One final question - for those of you still with me . . .
Apparently if you have a BT install (which I don't want - apart from the
removal of the HH kit) it comes in 2 flavours (and 2 prices!) - with a
contention ratio of 50:1 and an USB Modem for single computer use - or a
contention ratio of 20:1 and an ethernet router for use with a LAN.
Presumably with a self-install, there's nothing (either physically or
legally) to stop me from buying a cheaper 50:1 service, and still using a
router to share it across my LAN?

Correct, on a self install...purchase the service you want, be it
50:1/20:1/1:1 and use what ever kit you want

HTH

Many thanks for any information/advice you can provide.


Cheers,
Tim
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is Black Hole!

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
dr.black <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>
> If you are merely having the HH removed, then a normal pstn plate
> will be fitted
>
Is this still true even if the HH is being removed explicitly as part of a
managed ADSL conversion?

>
> You stated that you would like a adsl faceplate fitted...if you go
> this route you will need to terminate the existing cable to the face
> plate by either rj11/rj45 to plug into the main socket(2 ports, lh
> side rj11/45...rh side pots), to pick up the incoming line,(which is
> filtered at the faceplate) you also need an rj11 socket at the other
> end to plug in your kit. It may be easier to use the old HH wiring to
> make an extension point, wired into the pstn plate and a normal phone
> extension and use micro filters..depends on cost/time/appearance etc.
>
Assuming that BT *don't* provide an ADSL faceplate - and that I would need
to buy one - I was considering buying a modified one as per
http://www.clarity.it/telecoms/adsl_faceplate_mod.htm
and Kroning one pair of the old HH cable into the unfiltered IDC terminals
on the back. I would then need an RJ11/45 outlet box on the other end -
replacing the existing plug.

Can anyone see any problem with this?

--
Cheers,
Tim
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is Black Hole!

Tiscali Tim wrote:
> In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
> dr.black <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>>
>> If you are merely having the HH removed, then a normal pstn plate
>> will be fitted
>>
> Is this still true even if the HH is being removed explicitly as
> part of a managed ADSL conversion?

Fraid so....

>
>>
>> You stated that you would like a adsl faceplate fitted...if you go
>> this route you will need to terminate the existing cable to the
>> face plate by either rj11/rj45 to plug into the main socket(2
>> ports, lh side rj11/45...rh side pots), to pick up the incoming
>> line,(which is filtered at the faceplate) you also need an rj11
>> socket at the other end to plug in your kit. It may be easier to
>> use the old HH wiring to make an extension point, wired into the
>> pstn plate and a normal phone extension and use micro
>> filters..depends on cost/time/appearance etc.
>>
> Assuming that BT *don't* provide an ADSL faceplate -


And they shouldn't as you are doing a self install...

and that I
> would need to buy one - I was considering buying a modified one as
> per http://www.clarity.it/telecoms/adsl_faceplate_mod.htm
> and Kroning one pair of the old HH cable into the unfiltered IDC
> terminals on the back. I would then need an RJ11/45 outlet box on
> the other end - replacing the existing plug.
>
> Can anyone see any problem with this

You should be able to use the feed for your HH (as long as you put the RJ11
socket at the other end) but as pernormal there is a rider on this & hence
it may not work but you have nothing to lose by trying as the faceplate
filter is generally of a higher quality than a lot of the cheaper plug in
types....

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Kráftéé <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>
> You should be able to use the feed for your HH (as long as you put
> the RJ11 socket at the other end) but as pernormal there is a rider
> on this & hence it may not work but you have nothing to lose by
> trying as the faceplate filter is generally of a higher quality than
> a lot of the cheaper plug in types....


Thanks for your reply. Sorry, you've lost me with this last bit. If the
faceplate filter is of a high quality, is this *more* or *less* likely to
mean that an ADSL extension using the old HH CAT5 (or whatever) will work?
If it doesn't work, what is the remedy?
--
Cheers,
Tim
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is Black Hole!

Tiscali Tim wrote:
> In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
> Kráftéé <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>>
>> You should be able to use the feed for your HH (as long as you put
>> the RJ11 socket at the other end) but as pernormal there is a rider
>> on this & hence it may not work but you have nothing to lose by
>> trying as the faceplate filter is generally of a higher quality
>> than a lot of the cheaper plug in types....
>
>
> Thanks for your reply. Sorry, you've lost me with this last bit. If
> the faceplate filter is of a high quality, is this *more* or *less*
> likely to mean that an ADSL extension using the old HH CAT5 (or
> whatever) will work? If it doesn't work, what is the remedy?

Try taking the whole & not selective editing old man........

The faceplate filters are generally better quality than the plug-in filters
which, normally, are used for self intstalls...

The likelyhood if you being able to use the wiring if you use a plug-in is
negligible as how will you do a good quality connection between the 2.
Whether you can actually use the wiring or not will depend on how well it
was installed all those months/years ago when you had HH installed in the
first place.

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Kráftéé <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>
> The faceplate filters are generally better quality than the plug-in
> filters which, normally, are used for self intstalls...
>
> The likelyhood if you being able to use the wiring if you use a
> plug-in is negligible as how will you do a good quality connection
> between the 2. Whether you can actually use the wiring or not will
> depend on how well it was installed all those months/years ago when
> you had HH installed in the first place.


Sorry if I'm being dismally thick - but I am talking about using an existing
length of cable which came as part of the HH installation kit (and is
presumably CAT5 or at least better than standard telephone cable) to extend
the *unfiltered* line to a point where I can connect an ADSL router. The
master socket end - which is currently kroned into the back of what I call
the "HH dummy master" - would instead be kroned into the unfiltered IDC
connections on the rear of the modified ADSL faceplate.

Are there any issues relating to why such an ADSL connection may not work?
Surely the filters don't come into it - because I am extending the
unfiltered section.

Or were you suggesting that the voice circuits may not work? I have a daisy
chain (with spurs) of extension sockets - kroned into the back of the HH
dummy master. Under my scheme, they would end up kroned into the *filtered*
IDC connections on the back of the modified ADSL faceplate. Is there any
reason why this shouldn't work? Are there any pros and cons of having a
single filter in the faceplate to which all voice sockets are connected, as
opposed to distributing everything everywhere and filtering each individual
voice socket?
--
Cheers,
Tim
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is Black Hole!

On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 23:32:36 +0000, Tiscali Tim wrote:

> In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
> Kráftéé <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>> [quoted text muted]
>
>
> Sorry if I'm being dismally thick - but I am talking about using an existing
> length of cable which came as part of the HH installation kit (and is
> presumably CAT5 or at least better than standard telephone cable) to extend
> the *unfiltered* line to a point where I can connect an ADSL router. The
> master socket end - which is currently kroned into the back of what I call
> the "HH dummy master" - would instead be kroned into the unfiltered IDC
> connections on the rear of the modified ADSL faceplate.

Your, not, and your proposal will indeed work, though the cable that was
strung from the digital faceplate of the NTE5 to the HH box is not CAT5,
as there are only three pairs in it (at least mine is) and CAT5 has
four pairs. Where on earth they get this cable is a mystery to me.

This is more or less what I did, the difference being I then joined this
cable to some real CAT5 that used to carry the ISDN from the HH box
to the computer, to take it to the ADSL modem. It works for me.

As to the other poster, you could indeed plug this into a plug in
filter by getting a suitable plug out and crimping it onto the
end of the cable. However you are better off with the faceplate filter.


> Are there any issues relating to why such an ADSL connection may not work?
> Surely the filters don't come into it - because I am extending the
> unfiltered section.
>
> Or were you suggesting that the voice circuits may not work? I have a daisy
> chain (with spurs) of extension sockets - kroned into the back of the HH
> dummy master. Under my scheme, they would end up kroned into the *filtered*
> IDC connections on the back of the modified ADSL faceplate. Is there any
> reason why this shouldn't work? Are there any pros and cons of having a
> single filter in the faceplate to which all voice sockets are connected, as
> opposed to distributing everything everywhere and filtering each individual
> voice socket?

The advantage of a faceplate filter is that it saves having messy filters
all over the house.

JAB.

--
Jonathan A. Buzzard Email: jonathan (at) buzzard.me.uk
Northumberland, United Kingdom. Tel: +44 1661-832195

Tiscali Tim wrote:
> In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
> Kráftéé <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>>
>> The faceplate filters are generally better quality than the plug-in
>> filters which, normally, are used for self intstalls...
>>
>> The likelyhood if you being able to use the wiring if you use a
>> plug-in is negligible as how will you do a good quality connection
>> between the 2. Whether you can actually use the wiring or not will
>> depend on how well it was installed all those months/years ago when
>> you had HH installed in the first place.
>
>
> Sorry if I'm being dismally thick - but I am talking about using an
> existing length of cable which came as part of the HH installation
> kit (and is presumably CAT5 or at least better than standard
> telephone cable) to extend the *unfiltered* line to a point where I
> can connect an ADSL router. The master socket end - which is
> currently kroned into the back of what I call the "HH dummy master"
> - would instead be kroned into the unfiltered IDC connections on
> the rear of the modified ADSL faceplate.

Why send an unfiltered signal if you only want the DSL???

But anyway, if you put leave the normal faceplate on the master, then
connect up the HH length as an extension all you then need to do is put a
filter in the socket at the router end (yes I know that there are some who
say that you don't need to use a filter with the DSL modem/router but I have
met up with situations where it did make a difference). You'd need filters
for all the other phones as well

As for the rest of the posting, stop looking for things to go wrong (or else
they normally do) it is a simple job (or else I wouldn't be doing it),
especially as I have already answered some of the points elsewhere in this
thread...




> Are there any issues relating to why such an ADSL connection may
> not work? Surely the filters don't come into it - because I am
> extending the unfiltered section.
>
> Or were you suggesting that the voice circuits may not work? I have
> a daisy chain (with spurs) of extension sockets - kroned into the
> back of the HH dummy master. Under my scheme, they would end up
> kroned into the *filtered* IDC connections on the back of the
> modified ADSL faceplate. Is there any reason why this shouldn't
> work? Are there any pros and cons of having a single filter in the
> faceplate to which all voice sockets are connected, as opposed to
> distributing everything everywhere and filtering each individual
> voice socket?

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Kráftéé <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>
> Why send an unfiltered signal if you only want the DSL???
>
Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that the filters are low
pass for the benefit of voice connections, and that the ADSL signal is
unfiltered.

> As for the rest of the posting, stop looking for things to go wrong
> (or else they normally do) it is a simple job (or else I wouldn't be
> doing it), especially as I have already answered some of the points
> elsewhere in this thread...
>
*I* am not looking for things to go wrong - I am simply trying to understand
the cryptic warning contained in your first post - and I still don't.

Clearly, I'd rather be aware of potential issues up front so that, if at all
possible, I can get it right first time.
--
Cheers,
Tim
______
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