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Low tranfere rate from WAN site to PC's.

 
 
Palle Jensen
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      03-05-2006, 05:45 PM
Hello all,

I have tried so solve this in a danish group, but without succes, so
now I am trying here. Excuse me if there is typos or mispellings.
English is not my primary language.

My problem is that I don't think I get the best out of the wireless
network here. I have a 2 mbit ADSL connection, and with the cable
plugged in I receive approximately 220 KB/Sek. Very steady.

With my Wireless connection I receive with about 170 KB/Sek. This is
the fact for both the stationary and the laptop.

I connect to a FTP directly at my ISP. There IS bandwith enough.

I have also tried to bring home my laptop from work with build in
wireless (Intel). I have placed it just next to the AP, and did see
the same behaviour.

The weird thing is: I have tried to make a file transfere directly
from the stationary PC to the laptop. Here I can get 300 KB/Sek. So I
see that the network CAN move the amount of data that it should.

Here is what I've got:

A router/AP point type WRT54GC firmware 1.03.0. I have an external
antenna connected to optimize the connection.

To this router/AP I have to units connected:

1) A stationary PC with a Linksys PCI network adapter. Newest Driver
available.

2) A laptop computer with a PCMCIA network adapter from 3COM. Newest
driver available.

Signal situation?

The stationary PC has got Exellent coverage allmost constantly. The
laptop is weaker. The PCMCIA card is not so effective I guess?
Low <-> Good coverage.

The system is set up like this.

DHCP disabled.
WPA-PSK TKIP encryption (HEX63)
Mac filter (Yes I know it sucks)

What have I tried?

I downloaded "Network Stumbler" to see if any other networks were
interfering on the same channels that I used. I ended up finding
pretty good signal/noise ratio on my channel 6. Fine. But I have to
mention that I live a place with aprroximately 10 wireless netwoks
within range.

I am running out of ideas? Where can I tweak/test/whatever to get my
network in shape?

Thank you in advance..!

--
Med venlig hilsen
Palle Jensen
 
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Mark McIntyre
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      03-05-2006, 06:33 PM
On Sun, 05 Mar 2006 19:45:22 +0100, in alt.internet.wireless , Palle
Jensen <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>Hello all,
>
>I have tried so solve this in a danish group, but without succes, so
>now I am trying here. Excuse me if there is typos or mispellings.
>English is not my primary language.
>
>My problem is that I don't think I get the best out of the wireless
>network here. I have a 2 mbit ADSL connection, and with the cable
>plugged in I receive approximately 220 KB/Sek. Very steady.
>
>With my Wireless connection I receive with about 170 KB/Sek. This is
>the fact for both the stationary and the laptop.


This is probably close to the max you can get - there's an extra
overhead in wireless data compared to fixed-line, plus the encryption
will slow stuff down a little.

Mark McIntyre
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Palle Jensen
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      03-05-2006, 06:43 PM
On Sun, 05 Mar 2006 19:33:06 +0000, Mark McIntyre
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>>With my Wireless connection I receive with about 170 KB/Sek. This is
>>the fact for both the stationary and the laptop.

>
>This is probably close to the max you can get - there's an extra
>overhead in wireless data compared to fixed-line, plus the encryption
>will slow stuff down a little.


Not so much.

I have compared with to others running wireless on a 2 mbit. Also
encrypted. 218-220 KB/sek. One of them even with the exact same
router/AP.
--
Med venlig hilsen
Palle Jensen
 
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-oo0(GoldTrader)0oo-
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      03-05-2006, 07:10 PM
I wish you the best of luck Palie, Mark may be right, but I am afraid
that alt.internet.wireless, is not going to give you much help at all.
You need somebody like Jeff Liebermann over in comp.sys.mac.portables,
comp.sys.laptops, comp.sys.mac.system, or comp.sys.mac.misc

Palle Jensen wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> I have tried so solve this in a danish group, but without succes, so
> now I am trying here. Excuse me if there is typos or mispellings.
> English is not my primary language.
>
> My problem is that I don't think I get the best out of the wireless
> network here. I have a 2 mbit ADSL connection, and with the cable
> plugged in I receive approximately 220 KB/Sek. Very steady.
>
> With my Wireless connection I receive with about 170 KB/Sek. This is
> the fact for both the stationary and the laptop.
>
> I connect to a FTP directly at my ISP. There IS bandwith enough.
>
> I have also tried to bring home my laptop from work with build in
> wireless (Intel). I have placed it just next to the AP, and did see
> the same behaviour.
>
> The weird thing is: I have tried to make a file transfere directly
> from the stationary PC to the laptop. Here I can get 300 KB/Sek. So I
> see that the network CAN move the amount of data that it should.
>
> Here is what I've got:
>
> A router/AP point type WRT54GC firmware 1.03.0. I have an external
> antenna connected to optimize the connection.
>
> To this router/AP I have to units connected:
>
> 1) A stationary PC with a Linksys PCI network adapter. Newest Driver
> available.
>
> 2) A laptop computer with a PCMCIA network adapter from 3COM. Newest
> driver available.
>
> Signal situation?
>
> The stationary PC has got Exellent coverage allmost constantly. The
> laptop is weaker. The PCMCIA card is not so effective I guess?
> Low <-> Good coverage.
>
> The system is set up like this.
>
> DHCP disabled.
> WPA-PSK TKIP encryption (HEX63)
> Mac filter (Yes I know it sucks)
>
> What have I tried?
>
> I downloaded "Network Stumbler" to see if any other networks were
> interfering on the same channels that I used. I ended up finding
> pretty good signal/noise ratio on my channel 6. Fine. But I have to
> mention that I live a place with aprroximately 10 wireless netwoks
> within range.
>
> I am running out of ideas? Where can I tweak/test/whatever to get my
> network in shape?
>
> Thank you in advance..!
>
> --
> Med venlig hilsen
> Palle Jensen


 
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Mark McIntyre
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      03-05-2006, 07:19 PM
On 5 Mar 2006 12:10:50 -0800, in alt.internet.wireless ,
"-oo0(GoldTrader)0oo-" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>I wish you the best of luck Palie, Mark may be right, but I am afraid
>that alt.internet.wireless, is not going to give you much help at all.
>You need somebody like Jeff Liebermann over in comp.sys.mac.portables,
>comp.sys.laptops, comp.sys.mac.system, or comp.sys.mac.misc


Jeff posts in alt.internet.wireless too.

Theres a few things to bear in mind about wireless.

The protocol is half-duplex, If you're downloading, and need to
upload, you will interrupt the download. This can impact download
speeds.

Encryption is an overhead - it takes CPU cycles to encrypt data, and
depending on your PC, you may or may not notice this.

Wireless is a more lossy xfer method than wired - even with a "strong"
signal, there can be packets lost or damaged due to interference. For
instance, some cordless phones, microwaves, video senders, and other
equipment can interfere with wireless. Electronically noisy power
supplies on nearby equipment such as printers, fans, TVs etc can
interfere.

d/l speed depends on your upstream providers, both the source server
and the network links to you. At different times of day, one or the
other could be congested.

Lastly, don't forget that any measurement of d/l speed can be
seriously impacted by caching in your browser, at the server or in
between.

The only way to be certain that the numbers you list below are not
being affected by other factors would be to run many tests over the
same period of time for several days. One or two quick tests doesn't
mean a thing.

Mark McIntyre
--

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Palle Jensen
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      03-05-2006, 09:29 PM
On Sun, 05 Mar 2006 20:19:33 +0000, Mark McIntyre
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>The only way to be certain that the numbers you list below are not
>being affected by other factors would be to run many tests over the
>same period of time for several days. One or two quick tests doesn't
>mean a thing.


I hear you. I believe you.

But I have used the last week, testing. Turning antennas. Diabling,
enabling. Been walking in and out of rooms with the laptop etc. etc.

I have exellent coverage --> 54 MBit. I can't even tranfere what would
be 2 MBit between to computers on the LAN.

I don't know. Think I have to try and get another AP to test also.


--
Med venlig hilsen
Palle Jensen
 
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Jeff Liebermann
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      03-06-2006, 02:49 AM
Palle Jensen <(E-Mail Removed)> hath wroth:

>I have tried so solve this in a danish group, but without succes, so
>now I am trying here.


Well, as long as you don't attach any cartoons, we're safe. Just
where did all those protesters find Danish flags to burn?

>My problem is that I don't think I get the best out of the wireless
>network here. I have a 2 mbit ADSL connection, and with the cable
>plugged in I receive approximately 220 KB/Sek. Very steady.
>
>With my Wireless connection I receive with about 170 KB/Sek. This is
>the fact for both the stationary and the laptop.


As Mark said, that's fairly close to normal. Let's play with the
numbers.

2Mbits/sec on an ADSL connection will yield about 1780Kbits/sec or
about 222KBytes/sec. That's what the online performance tests should
show. The 10-15% overhead is the "ATM cell tax" penalty for using
ridiculously small packets (53 byte packets with 48 bytes of data) to
move potentially huge IP packets (64KBytes). This sorta explains how
it works:
| http://www.convergedigest.com/bp-ttp...p?ID=190&ctgy=
If you have PPPoE or PPPoA, you'll be at the high end of the "ATM cell
tax".

>I connect to a FTP directly at my ISP. There IS bandwith enough.


Numbers, not generalizations please. What bandwidth are you getting
with FTP from your ISP? Some ftp clients (i.e. Windoze 98SE and ME)
report wrong numbers for transfer statistics. Some Windoze FTP
applications (i.e. CuteFTP) seems to report ridiculously high numbers
because they seem to do a running average. If the initial value is
very high, later values will be affected. You can also see that in
the IE6 file transfers, that start out with spectacularly high
transfer rates and eventually slow down. If the files are too small,
they never reach a stable average and tend to be toward the high side.

Also, if you're measuring thruput, be sure to test both UDP (streaming
video) and TCP (file transfer). UDP does not require an
acknowledgement and therefore goes faster than TCP.

So much for the ADSL part of the puzzle. When you get to the wireless
end, you'll find that it's MUCH faster than your 2MBit/sec. No way
should the wireless be a limiting factor unless something is broken.
I've had the stupid ethernet cable drive me nuts. It was miswired but
worked well enough to establish a connection. However, the error rate
was very large and the thruput was terrible. Replacing the cable
instantly fixed the problem. Don't remind me that I was the one that
built the cable.

Your maximum wireless performance should follow this table:
| http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/FAQ_for...ance_and_Speed
Notice the wide variations in wireless thruput depending on how the
wireless router is setup. For example, a 54Mbit/sec wireless
association can yield 24.4Mbits/sec in thruput. However, if you
enable the 802.11b compatibility mode, the maximum thruput drops to
about 14.4Mbits/sec. However, at most speeds, your wireless will be
running MUCH faster than your ADSL connection, so it's not an issue.

>I have also tried to bring home my laptop from work with build in
>wireless (Intel). I have placed it just next to the AP, and did see
>the same behaviour.


Intel Proset had some problems with the speed going down to 1Mbit/sec
in the presence of interference, and never bothering to go back up
when the interference subsided. Upgrade to the latest version.

>The weird thing is: I have tried to make a file transfere directly
>from the stationary PC to the laptop. Here I can get 300 KB/Sek. So I
>see that the network CAN move the amount of data that it should.


Via wireless or wired? 2.4Mbits/sec is still rather slow for either a
wired or wireless connection.

>Here is what I've got:
>
>A router/AP point type WRT54GC firmware 1.03.0. I have an external
>antenna connected to optimize the connection.
>
>To this router/AP I have to units connected:
>
>1) A stationary PC with a Linksys PCI network adapter. Newest Driver
>available.


Model number of the Linksys PCI card.
Hardware version number of the PCI card.
Software version that you claim is the latest.
This is probably un-necessary for solving this problem, but if you ask
questions later, it's a good thing to describe the hardware exactly.

>2) A laptop computer with a PCMCIA network adapter from 3COM. Newest
>driver available.


Same as above. Need hardware model, hardware version, and driver
version. Model number of the laptop and exact operating system is
also helpful.

>Signal situation?
>
>The stationary PC has got Exellent coverage allmost constantly. The
>laptop is weaker. The PCMCIA card is not so effective I guess?
>Low <-> Good coverage.


Linksys PCI adapter has a decent antenna. The 3com PCMCIA card does
not. The difference is in the antenna.

>The system is set up like this.
>
>DHCP disabled.
>WPA-PSK TKIP encryption (HEX63)
>Mac filter (Yes I know it sucks)
>
>What have I tried?
>
>I downloaded "Network Stumbler" to see if any other networks were
>interfering on the same channels that I used.


Netstumbler will only find access points that broadcast their SSID. It
cannot find client radios or non-802.11 devices. Instead of looking
for interference, just try changing the channel (1, 6, or 11). If the
performance improves, then you have interference on the old channel.
If you really want to find sources of interference, you should either
use Kismet (under Linux) or a spectrum analyzer.

>I ended up finding
>pretty good signal/noise ratio on my channel 6.


Amazing. My war driving through Santa Cruz shows that about 75% of
the networks heard are on channel 6.

>Fine. But I have to
>mention that I live a place with aprroximately 10 wireless netwoks
>within range.


How far is the "range"? In general, a wireless network will not cause
problems unless it's very close, very strong, or someone is using a
power amplifier.

>I am running out of ideas? Where can I tweak/test/whatever to get my
>network in shape?


I don't think you can. The only numbers I can find wrong is the
relatively slow 2.4Mbits/sec transfer rate. However, I have no idea
how you are testing this, so even that may be correct.

>Thank you in advance..!


Incidentally, your English is quite good.

--
Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
 
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Mark McIntyre
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      03-06-2006, 06:28 PM
On Sun, 05 Mar 2006 19:49:29 -0800, in alt.internet.wireless , Jeff
Liebermann <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>Netstumbler will only find access points that broadcast their SSID.


actually, this is incorrect. V 0.4.0 will find SSIDless APs too. At
least, it does for me.

Mark McIntyre
--

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Jeff Liebermann
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      03-06-2006, 08:27 PM
On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 19:28:38 +0000, Mark McIntyre
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>On Sun, 05 Mar 2006 19:49:29 -0800, in alt.internet.wireless , Jeff
>Liebermann <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>>Netstumbler will only find access points that broadcast their SSID.

>
>actually, this is incorrect. V 0.4.0 will find SSIDless APs too. At
>least, it does for me.


I'm using v0.3.30 on my Windoze ME laptop. It will find access points
that respond with a blank SSID, but not those that don't respond at
all. Netstumbler is an active scanner and requires that an access
point responds to the probe requests. If it doesn't, then Netstumbler
can't see it. Mostly, I use Kismet these daze.


--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558 (E-Mail Removed)
# http://802.11junk.com (E-Mail Removed)
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS
 
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Palle Jensen
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      03-06-2006, 08:51 PM
On Sun, 05 Mar 2006 19:49:29 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>Well, as long as you don't attach any cartoons, we're safe. Just
>where did all those protesters find Danish flags to burn?


Eww.. Don't mention the war.... Don't know about the flags? I know
that some muslims demonstrants mistakenly picked the swiss flag
instead :-)

>>With my Wireless connection I receive with about 170 KB/Sek. This is
>>the fact for both the stationary and the laptop.

>
>As Mark said, that's fairly close to normal. Let's play with the
>numbers.


OK then. I'll read carefully...

>2Mbits/sec on an ADSL connection will yield about 1780Kbits/sec or
>about 222KBytes/sec. That's what the online performance tests should
>show. The 10-15% overhead is the "ATM cell tax" penalty for using
>ridiculously small packets (53 byte packets with 48 bytes of data) to
>move potentially huge IP packets (64KBytes). This sorta explains how
>it works:
>| http://www.convergedigest.com/bp-ttp...p?ID=190&ctgy=
>If you have PPPoE or PPPoA, you'll be at the high end of the "ATM cell
>tax".


I can't deny that you are perfectly right in this. But mayby I/we
should stick to the "inside" of the network. PC <--> AP <--> PC. If
both computers are connected to the AP wit an exellent connection at
54 Mbps, then I would believe that I should be able to yield something
better than ~ 300-400 KB/Sek (~3 Mbps). (As you write later)

>>I connect to a FTP directly at my ISP. There IS bandwith enough.

>
>Numbers, not generalizations please. What bandwidth are you getting
>with FTP from your ISP? Some ftp clients (i.e. Windoze 98SE and ME)
>report wrong numbers for transfer statistics. Some Windoze FTP
>applications (i.e. CuteFTP) seems to report ridiculously high numbers
>because they seem to do a running average. If the initial value is
>very high, later values will be affected. You can also see that in
>the IE6 file transfers, that start out with spectacularly high
>transfer rates and eventually slow down. If the files are too small,
>they never reach a stable average and tend to be toward the high side.


I undestand. But it shouldn't really mean a lot since I compare with
speeds meassured with the cable plugged in the network adapter instead
og the wireless.

I have used FileZilla. I have used Firefox. I have used BySoft network
monitor (http://www.bysoft.com/). All with same results.

My ISP has a FTP test site constructed for speed test purposes. With
cable plugged in I have never ever seen anything else than 220 KB/Sek.
Rock steady and always. But again: I believe all you tell me about
overhead, encryption overhead, Packet loss etc..

Let's take a look at the inside of the network. Why do I get such
lousy performance? I was hoping for something like 10 Mbps. Instead I
get one third of ths instead..

>Also, if you're measuring thruput, be sure to test both UDP (streaming
>video) and TCP (file transfer). UDP does not require an
>acknowledgement and therefore goes faster than TCP.


Noted.

>So much for the ADSL part of the puzzle. When you get to the wireless
>end, you'll find that it's MUCH faster than your 2MBit/sec.


It really isn't.

>Your maximum wireless performance should follow this table:
>| http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/FAQ_for...ance_and_Speed
>Notice the wide variations in wireless thruput depending on how the
>wireless router is setup. For example, a 54Mbit/sec wireless
>association can yield 24.4Mbits/sec in thruput. However, if you
>enable the 802.11b compatibility mode, the maximum thruput drops to
>about 14.4Mbits/sec. However, at most speeds, your wireless will be
>running MUCH faster than your ADSL connection, so it's not an issue.


Thanks for the link! Interessting reading. The problem in this
particular case is that I am almost limited by the the wireless
performance! I am sitting 30 ft from the acces point, but are still
offered 54 Mbps with exellent connection. Still I don't get much more
that approximately 3 Mbps. Annoying.

>>The weird thing is: I have tried to make a file transfere directly
>>from the stationary PC to the laptop. Here I can get 300 KB/Sek. So I
>>see that the network CAN move the amount of data that it should.

>
>Via wireless or wired? 2.4Mbits/sec is still rather slow for either a
>wired or wireless connection.


This is wireless.

>>Here is what I've got:


//Here I am asked for more accurate hardware info, so I try...//

############################################
Acces point: WRT54GC
Firmware: 1.03.0.
Antenna: Linksys High Gain Antenna HGA7S (7 dBi)

Ref: http://www1.linksys.com/products/pro...id=679&scid=35
Ref: http://www1.linksys.com/products/pro...id=648&scid=38
############################################
PCI Network adapter: WMP54G
Used on Stationary PC
Driver version: 3.0.3.0

Don't use vendors software. Only installed drivers and letting XP
control the wireless.

Ref: http://www1.linksys.com/internationa...oid=6&ipid=232
############################################
PCMCIA Network adapter: 3COM Office Connect
Used on Laptop PC.

REF:
http://www.3com.com/products/en_US/s...ch=3CRXJK10075

Driver version: 3.3.0.156

Vendors software installed.
############################################

Laptop PC (Amitech FreeNote 4602). XP Professional.

Staionary PC: Homebuild. XP Home.

>>Fine. But I have to mention that I live a place with aprroximately 10 wireless netwoks
>>within range.

>
>How far is the "range"? In general, a wireless network will not cause
>problems unless it's very close, very strong, or someone is using a
>power amplifier.


I live in the middle of Copenhagen, compacted in large old buildings.
I live on 4'th floor. The nearest network I know of is on 1'st floor.
A guess would be that the network that I see is placed from 50-100 ft
away. But I can't really know. If I browse after networs with my Dell
laptop (with build in wireless), then I see approximately 10 AP. With
my stationary PC I rarely see more the 2.

>I don't think you can. The only numbers I can find wrong is the
>relatively slow 2.4Mbits/sec transfer rate. However, I have no idea
>how you are testing this, so even that may be correct.


:-/

>>Thank you in advance..!

>
>Incidentally, your English is quite good.


Thanks again :-)

--
Med venlig hilsen
Palle Jensen
 
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