Looking for advice on wireless set up

Been a lurker for a while have expermiented abit with wireless. (thanks
seaweed steve & Jeff L) But I need some assistance on another project , here
are the specs:

Internet is currently being recieved at house 1. From there the stock
linksys "G" router is rebroadcasting the internet to the shed and house 2.
The range extender is also stock at house 2. There are no neighbours for at
least a mile in all directions.

Looking for different suggestions on how to cost effectively get good
signal to all locations, Can I install a poe omni directional antenna that
would reach both locations. Would it be better to get the seano ecb 3220 and
set up wireless bridges to to both locations.

I have created a pdf of the yard site for clarification if you think you can
help and would like the pdf, send me an email and I send it to you.

Thanks in advance,

Bryon

> Can I install a poe omni directional antenna

Antennae are not PoE. PoE allows putting the router itself closer to the
antenna. You want the cable between the antenna and the router to be as
SHORT AS POSSIBLE. The longer the cable (even with very high quality, very
expensive, cable) you're still faced with signal loss. Where as PoE over
CAT5 is quite a lot less expensive.

That and directional antenna allows focusing the signal where it's most
effective. For something like houses you're better off using directional
antennae. Why waste signal putting it out where it's not needed?

As for range extenders, ugh, personally I hate them. They're basically
walkie-talkie radios. You end up wasting bandwidth (throughput and speed)
using them. Sure, they "work" but at a considerable hit on performance.
Combine them with omni directional antennae and multiple users and you have
a recipe for disaster. You might get "coverage" in all places but the
actual throughput will likely be terrible.

Then there's the question of managing bandwidth. Sharing bandwidth when
others start hogging the wire is a lot harder to manage when you're dealing
solely with an omni-directional setup.

-Bill Kearney

On Jan 17, 8:26*am, "Bill Kearney" <wkearne...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Can I install a poe omni directional antenna
>
> Antennae are not PoE. *PoE allows putting the router itself closer to the
> antenna. *You want the cable between the antenna and the router to be as
> SHORT AS POSSIBLE. *The longer the cable (even with very high quality, very
> expensive, cable) you're still faced with signal loss. *Where as PoE over
> CAT5 is quite a lot less expensive.
>
> That and directional antenna allows focusing the signal where it's most
> effective. *For something like houses you're better off using directional
> antennae. *Why waste signal putting it out where it's not needed?
>
> As for range extenders, ugh, personally I hate them. *They're basically
> walkie-talkie radios. *You end up wasting bandwidth (throughput and speed)
> using them. *Sure, they "work" but at a considerable hit on performance.
> Combine them with omni directional antennae and multiple users and you have
> a recipe for disaster. *You might get "coverage" in all places but the
> actual throughput will likely be terrible.
>
> Then there's the question of managing bandwidth. *Sharing bandwidth when
> others start hogging the wire is a lot harder to manage when you're dealing
> solely with an omni-directional setup.
>
> -Bill Kearney

There will be a max of 3 users at most. Can you run two external
antennas off of one router?? Would that be my best bet? I have been
looking at cable prices and yes they are expensive, that is why I was
wondering about the POE setups http://www.pacwireless.com/products/RT24.shtml
is one that I was looking at.

Bryon

On Thu, 17 Jan 2008 07:12:55 -0800 (PST), bryonfriesen
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in
<583ac8ab-14f8-43b8-ae17-(E-Mail Removed)>:

>There will be a max of 3 users at most. Can you run two external
>antennas off of one router?? Would that be my best bet?

Generally a bad idea. Use either a high-gain omni if you can live with
the narrow vertical pattern, or multiple wireless access points with
directional high-gain antennas.

>I have been
>looking at cable prices and yes they are expensive, that is why I was
>wondering about the POE setups http://www.pacwireless.com/products/RT24.shtml
>is one that I was looking at.

Best to pick wireless access points designed for the application, with
POE built-in, often with attachable high-gain omni or directional
antennas; e.g., Senao 3220 or 8610. <http://www.senao.com/>

--
Best regards, FAQ for Wireless Internet: <http://Wireless.wikia.com>
John Navas FAQ for Wi-Fi: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi>
Wi-Fi How To: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_HowTo>
Fixes to Wi-Fi Problems: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_Fixes>

ok, so from the house where my internet comes to I have a wireless G router,
I then buy two Senao 3220 and two 8610. I aim the two 8610 at my two
seperate locations. Wire them up with cat 5e, then conenct both senao
bridges to my wireless "G" router, should I need anything at the revieving
ends another senao 3220 and atenna???

Bryon

"John Navas" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> On Thu, 17 Jan 2008 07:12:55 -0800 (PST), bryonfriesen
> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in
> <583ac8ab-14f8-43b8-ae17-(E-Mail Removed)>:
>
>>There will be a max of 3 users at most. Can you run two external
>>antennas off of one router?? Would that be my best bet?
>
> Generally a bad idea. Use either a high-gain omni if you can live with
> the narrow vertical pattern, or multiple wireless access points with
> directional high-gain antennas.
>
>>I have been
>>looking at cable prices and yes they are expensive, that is why I was
>>wondering about the POE setups
>>http://www.pacwireless.com/products/RT24.shtml
>>is one that I was looking at.
>
> Best to pick wireless access points designed for the application, with
> POE built-in, often with attachable high-gain omni or directional
> antennas; e.g., Senao 3220 or 8610. <http://www.senao.com/>
>
> --
> Best regards, FAQ for Wireless Internet: <http://Wireless.wikia.com>
> John Navas FAQ for Wi-Fi: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi>
> Wi-Fi How To: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_HowTo>
> Fixes to Wi-Fi Problems: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_Fixes>

On Thu, 17 Jan 2008 21:12:56 -0600, "Bryon Friesen"
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in
<ZOUjj.21809$(E-Mail Removed)>:

>ok, so from the house where my internet comes to I have a wireless G router,
>I then buy two Senao 3220 and two 8610. I aim the two 8610 at my two
>seperate locations. Wire them up with cat 5e, then conenct both senao
>bridges to my wireless "G" router, should I need anything at the revieving
>ends another senao 3220 and atenna???

I would start by buying two Senao units with high-gain directional
antennas.

1. Install one Senao in the closest remote location, configure it as a
wireless Ethernet client bridge, and see if that's enough to get
reliable signal from the wireless G router at the house.

2. If (1) works, install the other Senao unit at the other remote
location the same way, and if that works, you're all done.

3. If either (1) or (2) doesn't work, try the other Senao unit at the
house, cabled to your wireless G router, configured as a wireless access
point (not router). If you get strong signal with the high-gain
directional antenna at the house, then buy a high-gain omni for the
house and see if that works for both remote locations.

4. If (3) high-gain omni does work, then you need to buy one more Senao
unit with high-gain directional antenna for the other remote location.

5. If (3) high-gain omni doesn't work, then you'll need two Senao units
at the house, and will have to buy two more Senao units, one for the
house and one for a remote location, both with high-gain directional
antennas.

All antennas should be high-gain directional except if you're able to
get a high-gain omni to work at the house so that one Senao at the house
can service the two remote locations.

Hope that helps (and that I didn't make a misteak).
..
--
Best regards, FAQ for Wireless Internet: <http://Wireless.wikia.com>
John Navas FAQ for Wi-Fi: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi>
Wi-Fi How To: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_HowTo>
Fixes to Wi-Fi Problems: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_Fixes>

On Jan 17, 7:19 am, "Bryon Friesen" <bryonfrie...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Been a lurker for a while have expermiented abit with wireless. (thanks
> seaweed steve & Jeff L) But I need some assistance on another project , here
> are the specs:
>
> Internet is currently being recieved at house 1. From there the stock
> linksys "G" router is rebroadcasting the internet to the shed and house 2.
> The range extender is also stock at house 2. There are no neighbours for at
> least a mile in all directions.
>
> Looking for different suggestions on how to cost effectively get good
> signal to all locations, Can I install a poe omni directional antenna that
> would reach both locations. Would it be better to get the seano ecb 3220 and
> set up wireless bridges to to both locations.
>
> I have created a pdf of the yard site for clarification if you think you can
> help and would like the pdf, send me an email and I send it to you.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Bryon

1) When you say "range extender" do you mean repeater? I've seen
people use this term in different ways.

2) Are your two remote places in opposite directions from the main
house so that one directional antenna won't work?

3) What part is not working now? Why do you think that is?

I do want to add a comment that counters the usual "no antenna cable"
rule;
In some situations, it makes sense to me to run an cable to a remote
antenna rather than add another radio.

For example: If your base or gateway router is connecting to indoor
computers by ethernet as well as wirelessly to remote locations, then
it's not efficient to put that router in a box. If you don't need
it's radio for inside the house, then you can use it for the remotes
by tacking on an antenna cable.

Buying an AP all-in-one box to tack onto that router might be best,
but in our situation, I chose not to buy a second radio just to avoid
a 2 db loss. It just was not that critical. I installed a 30' LMR400
cable ($30 from CompUSA) and a 12 dbi directional antenna ($30 online)
instead. LMR400 loses .25 db per meter. I got an effective 10 dbi
directional antenna (more or less) mounted just where I wanted it, for
$60. It has great range. Plus I have one box, not two, to maintain
at the gateway. In our environment, that made sense, and I have not
regretted it.

Another bit of contrary advice: You don't necessarily need POE. I
just installed a rootenna with a WRT54G in it. I spliced some 16 ga
zip cord into the power supply to extend it into the box up the pole.
Works fine. I understand that the WRT is particularly resilient for
voltage variations, so I was not worried about a bit of voltage loss
for the extra 15' of cable. I should've done the math, but I didn't.

Because of being in a remote location, I prefer to use the simplest
and most common devices and as few as possible. It may be different
for others.

I am not trying to undermine the excellent advice others are offering,
just broadening your perspective on what can work.

Cheers,
Steve

On Jan 18, 11:32 pm, seaweedsteve <seaweedst...@gmail.com> wrote:


>
> 3) What part is not working now? Why do you think that is?
>

I'm still curious to hear your answer to this question. It looks like
you have something set up, so where is it broken?

More questions:

Is your stock router "broadcasting" from the tower shown or from
inside the house?
Does the tower have line of sight to where you want to connect?
Is the repeater problematic?

All this helps to sort out how big of a hammer you really need. You
mention that cost-effective is important. If you just need a bit more
signal strength, then a number of simpler solutions might serve.

Also;

Is the shed on the same electrical drop as the main house? The house
across the road? Powerline networking may be a good option for the
shed especially.

Do you want/need wireless coverage at the house across the street or
is it just a connection for fixed pcs?
How about in the shed?



After seeing your pdf, I can see that you do have about a 110 degree
window to cover with one antenna from your tower, if it's a given that
you will put an antenna there. To do so you will need a sector
antenna (expensive unless you DIY) or, more typically, an omni for
that coverage..

Or else you tackle each direction separately as has been suggested.



First thoughts: An omni might work fine if your two remote sites are
at the same elevation more or less. And if a 30' cable will get you
there, then that Hawking from CompUSA looks cost-effective. Will also
need an N>TNC adapter for it though.

With line of site for 500 feet, if you are currently getting it to
work from inside the house on a stock antenna, then just getting an
omni up on the tower may work wonders.

You might want to play with a link budget calculator here to sort out
gain needed. There are some typical numbers to use for power and
sensitivity (see examples), then try plugging in different numbers for
your antenna - cable gains at each end.

You can find links at the wireless wiki John has in his sig. Also,
for calculating cable loss: www.timesmicrowave.com/*cgi-bin/calculate.pl
Plug 2400 Mhz into the frequency.


Thing to do is sort out delivery path(s) first, then decide whether to
go with coax to inside or a separate AP in a box. I can't see
justifying two units on your tower with such a simple setup though .

Steve

On Jan 21, 9:43*am, seaweedsteve <seaweedst...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 18, 11:32 pm, seaweedsteve <seaweedst...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > 3) What part is not working now? *Why do you think that is?
>
> I'm still curious to hear your answer to this question. It looks like
> you have something set up, so where is it broken?
>
> More questions:
>
> Is your stock router "broadcasting" from the tower shown or from
> inside the house?

From in the house

> Does the tower have line of sight to where you want to connect?

Yes

> Is the repeater problematic?

It carries the signal but fades out also

> All this helps to sort out how big of a hammer you really need. *You
> mention that cost-effective is important. *If you just need a bit more
> signal strength, then a number of simpler solutions might serve.
>
> Also;
>
> Is the shed on the same electrical drop as the main house? *

Not sure
The house across the road?

Not sure

Powerline networking may be a good option for the shed especially.
>
> Do you want/need wireless coverage at the house across the street or
> is it just a connection for fixed pcs?
> How about in the shed?

It would be nice to have wireless on the yard infront of the shed, I
Think if I can get internet stable to house #2 all year long if they
had to only use a cable then I think they would live with it. They
have a laptop at the second location.
>
> After seeing your pdf, I can see that you do have about a 110 degree
> window to cover with one antenna from your tower, if it's a given that
> you will put an antenna there. * To do so you will need a sector
> antenna (expensive unless you DIY) *or, more typically, an omni for
> that coverage..

That is kind of why I was wondering about a Rootena with the seano
bridge. I can use a network cable up to the antenna to get more
distance and I thought that it being powered would make it stronger.
http://www.pacwireless.com/products/RJ45-ECS.shtml I liked the idea of
converting the coax to a network cable.

>
> Or else you tackle each direction separately as has been suggested.
>
> First thoughts: * An omni might work fine if your two remote sites are
> at the same elevation more or less. *And if a 30' cable will get you
> there, then that Hawking from CompUSA looks cost-effective. *Will also
> need an N>TNC adapter for it though.

Not sure if 30' would get me over the trees and into the house.

>
> With line of site for 500 feet, if you are currently getting it to
> work from inside the house on a stock antenna, then just getting an
> omni up on the tower may work wonders.

That is a good thought any hardware suggestions

>
> You might want to play with a link budget calculator here to sort out
> gain needed. *There are some typical numbers to use for power and
> sensitivity (see examples), then try plugging in different numbers for
> your antenna - cable gains at each end.

I would probably order LMR400 cabke again from www.wifi-link.com
>
> You can find links at the wireless wiki John has in his sig. *Also,
> for calculating cable loss:www.timesmicrowave.com/*cgi-bin/calculate.pl
> Plug 2400 Mhz into the frequency.
>
> Thing to do is sort out delivery path(s) first, then decide whether to
> go with coax to inside or a separate AP in a box. *I can't see
> justifying two units on your tower with such a simple setup though .
>
> Steve


Thanks for all the info so far, I have added some responses to the
questions.

Bryon

On Jan 24, 2:03 pm, bryonfriesen <bryonfrie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 21, 9:43 am, seaweedsteve <seaweedst...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jan 18, 11:32 pm, seaweedsteve <seaweedst...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > 3) What part is not working now? Why do you think that is?
>
> > I'm still curious to hear your answer to this question. It looks like
> > you have something set up, so where is it broken?
>
> > More questions:
>
> > Is your stock router "broadcasting" from the tower shown or from
> > inside the house?
>
> From in the house
>
> > Does the tower have line of sight to where you want to connect?
>
> Yes
>
> > Is the repeater problematic?
>
> It carries the signal but fades out also
>
> > All this helps to sort out how big of a hammer you really need. You
> > mention that cost-effective is important. If you just need a bit more
> > signal strength, then a number of simpler solutions might serve.
>
> > Also;
>
> > Is the shed on the same electrical drop as the main house?
>
> Not sure
> The house across the road?
>
> Not sure
>
> Powerline networking may be a good option for the shed especially.
>
>
>
> > Do you want/need wireless coverage at the house across the street or
> > is it just a connection for fixed pcs?
> > How about in the shed?
>
> It would be nice to have wireless on the yard infront of the shed, I
> Think if I can get internet stable to house #2 all year long if they
> had to only use a cable then I think they would live with it. They
> have a laptop at the second location.
>
>
>
> > After seeing your pdf, I can see that you do have about a 110 degree
> > window to cover with one antenna from your tower, if it's a given that
> > you will put an antenna there. To do so you will need a sector
> > antenna (expensive unless you DIY) or, more typically, an omni for
> > that coverage..
>
> That is kind of why I was wondering about a Rootena with the seano
> bridge. I can use a network cable up to the antenna to get more
> distance and I thought that it being powered would make it stronger.http://www.pacwireless.com/products/RJ45-ECS.shtmlI liked the idea of
> converting the coax to a network cable.
>
>
>
> > Or else you tackle each direction separately as has been suggested.
>
> > First thoughts: An omni might work fine if your two remote sites are
> > at the same elevation more or less. And if a 30' cable will get you
> > there, then that Hawking from CompUSA looks cost-effective. Will also
> > need an N>TNC adapter for it though.
>
> Not sure if 30' would get me over the trees and into the house.
>
>
>
> > With line of site for 500 feet, if you are currently getting it to
> > work from inside the house on a stock antenna, then just getting an
> > omni up on the tower may work wonders.
>
> That is a good thought any hardware suggestions
>
>
>
> > You might want to play with a link budget calculator here to sort out
> > gain needed. There are some typical numbers to use for power and
> > sensitivity (see examples), then try plugging in different numbers for
> > your antenna - cable gains at each end.
>
> I would probably order LMR400 cabke again fromwww.wifi-link.com
>
>
>
> > You can find links at the wireless wiki John has in his sig. Also,
> > for calculating cable loss:www.timesmicrowave.com/*cgi-bin/calculate.pl
> > Plug 2400 Mhz into the frequency.
>
> > Thing to do is sort out delivery path(s) first, then decide whether to
> > go with coax to inside or a separate AP in a box. I can't see
> > justifying two units on your tower with such a simple setup though .
>
> > Steve
>
> Thanks for all the info so far, I have added some responses to the
> questions.
>
> Bryon

Considering that:

1) the installation is almost working inside the house (a slightly
bigger hammer is all that's called for)
2) you want wifi in front of the shed as well as inside (simple
powerline networking is out, though a two piece solution with separate
AP could still work)
3) you don't know if 30 feet is enough to get your "base station"
antenna all the way up in the air.

Then a single AP with an omni antenna may very well be appropriate
here. I might start with an AP that has it's own box and POE
(power over ethernet) and a medium- gain omni. You didn't mention if
there's much altitude difference in your coverage area, but hi gain
omni's (10db+) can be too limited in their vertical beamwidth.

This will allow you to do the main thing, which is get an antenna up
high I did a test on our system before buying a high gain antenna to
see. I taped our router with it's stock (2dbi) antenna to a long
stick with an extension cord and an ethernet cable. Getting it up
high, with line of sight, I went to the distant site and found that my
signal jumped from marginal (-80db) to workable (approx -72 db)
using the stock 4 dbi . This told me that 3-6 db further antenna
gain was going to be enough. I think that you would find the same
thing and can do the same test if you want.

Here's a candidate for an AP in your case:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16833168010

Some say that these boxes are tricky to setup- poor interface. But
they have a rep as being pretty good gear. Read the reviews for it
and the similar one with a patch antenna to get an idea for yourself
on the product.

This one has an external connector, so if, after installing it, the
signal is still not strong enough, you can upgrade to a higher db omni
or some other (sector?) antenna.

Get this first and see how it works before sorting out the rest, I
suppose.


Though I can recommend an additional purchase:

A client adapter (USB or Ethernet) with an external antenna connector
is a nice problem solver to have with you and could bail you out if
the existing Linksys extender/repeater won't work or you need better
reception somewhere else.

Since we are at NewEgg, here's a couple of cheap ethernet AP/client
adapters that look interesting:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16833156159
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817201523

For compactness and connection power, you can't beat a USB client
adapter with an external antenna connector - something like this one:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16833315075


As I said, these are great problem solvers and one of them might serve
here. The USB is smaller, but less flexible and shorter more expensive
cable extension (15' limit passive). The Ethernet ones will do much
more.

In either case, putting a directional antenna on one of these could
really make the difference on range if the included antenna is still
not enough.


As far as that RJ45 connector system you linked, I don't see the
need. Just use what comes with your AP in a box.

Cheers,
Steve