Long line DSL

In followup to an earlier discussion about getting DSL to my
parents' house, they have their 512Kb service and have been supplied
a Zyxel 660r-61c router.

The connection seems to be a bit intermittent, but looking at the
line figures, is it any wonder?

To be fair, these do change quite a lot over time, and these are
probably at the worse end.

Is any other device likely to cope better with these conditions,
e.g. the oft recommended Draytek Vigor?

Or should I tell them they basically have to decide between fast and
unreliable or slow and reliable?


noise margin upstream: 6 db
output power downstream: 14 db
attenuation upstream: 31 db
tone 0- 31: 00 00 00 04 45 44 55 55 55 45 54 44 33 33 22 22
tone 32- 63: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 64- 95: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 96-127: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 128-159: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 160-191: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 192-223: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 224-255: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 256-287: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 288-319: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 320-351: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 352-383: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 384-415: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 416-447: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 448-479: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 480-511: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00


noise margin downstream: 1 db
output power upstream: 12 db
attenuation downstream: 63 db
tone 0- 31: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 32- 63: 00 00 00 25 55 44 33 04 45 55 24 35 55 23 44 44
tone 64- 95: 04 44 45 55 44 44 44 33 22 02 22 22 20 22 20 00
tone 96-127: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 128-159: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 160-191: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 192-223: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 224-255: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 256-287: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 288-319: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 320-351: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 352-383: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 384-415: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 416-447: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 448-479: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
tone 480-511: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00

John Carlyle-Clarke wrote:
> In followup to an earlier discussion about getting DSL to my
> parents' house, they have their 512Kb service and have been supplied
> a Zyxel 660r-61c router.
>
> The connection seems to be a bit intermittent, but looking at the
> line figures, is it any wonder?
>
> To be fair, these do change quite a lot over time, and these are
> probably at the worse end.
>
> Is any other device likely to cope better with these conditions,
> e.g. the oft recommended Draytek Vigor?
>
> Or should I tell them they basically have to decide between fast and
> unreliable or slow and reliable?
>
>
> noise margin upstream: 6 db
> output power downstream: 14 db
> attenuation upstream: 31 db

> noise margin downstream: 1 db
> output power upstream: 12 db
> attenuation downstream: 63 db

With a d/s noise margin or 1dB it's a miracle there's any connection at
all !
You need at least 6dB d/s. Any idea what the sync rate is ? If it's
576k, then the only hope is to use a lower one. 288k should add 6dB to
the d/s margin, giving you 7dB.

AFAIK Zen are the only ISP that can provide an ADSL service locked to
that ?

However if the line is enabled for ADSLMax then it should settle down
at that rate anyway ?

John Carlyle-Clarke wrote:
> In followup to an earlier discussion about getting DSL to my
> parents' house, they have their 512Kb service and have been supplied
> a Zyxel 660r-61c router.
>
> The connection seems to be a bit intermittent, but looking at the
> line figures, is it any wonder?

what was the upstream sync speed ?

> To be fair, these do change quite a lot over time, and these are
> probably at the worse end.
>
> Is any other device likely to cope better with these conditions,
> e.g. the oft recommended Draytek Vigor?
>
> Or should I tell them they basically have to decide between fast and
> unreliable or slow and reliable?
>

the Home 250 product from Zen would address the downstream SNR as it
syncs at half the speed. Or a MaxDSL based service would find a speed
that gave a workable margin.

Modems based on TI AR7 chipset are supposed to be good on longer lines,
I don't know what the Zyxel uses but Westell 6100, DLink DSL-300T and
Netgear 834(G) are AR7 based.

It appears that the combination of modem and DSLAM can have an
influence - both from the same manufacturer being the ideal.

I assume you've discussed the wiring etc in the other thread.


Phil

"John Carlyle-Clarke" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:Xns982F672E7564Bdiscombobulation@84.92.1.10.. .
> In followup to an earlier discussion about getting DSL to my
> parents' house, they have their 512Kb service and have been supplied
> a Zyxel 660r-61c router.
>
> The connection seems to be a bit intermittent, but looking at the
> line figures, is it any wonder?
>
> To be fair, these do change quite a lot over time, and these are
> probably at the worse end.
>
> Is any other device likely to cope better with these conditions,
> e.g. the oft recommended Draytek Vigor?
>
> Or should I tell them they basically have to decide between fast and
> unreliable or slow and reliable?
>
>
> noise margin upstream: 6 db
> output power downstream: 14 db
> attenuation upstream: 31 db
>
> noise margin downstream: 1 db
> output power upstream: 12 db
> attenuation downstream: 63 db
---------------------------------------------------------

I am some 5.7 km from the exchange
downstream
noise margin 12 db
attenuation 59.7 db
output power 18.1 dbm

upstream
noise margin 14 db
attenuation 31.5 db
output power 12.3 dbm

currently synchronising at 3008 down and 448 up [max dsl]
data speeds 2350 / 376

I tried seven different routers and have found the 2-wire 2700HGV to be the
best ever!
This is also known as [I think] the BT Business Hub.

> In followup to an earlier discussion about getting DSL to my
> parents' house, they have their 512Kb service and have been supplied
> a Zyxel 660r-61c router.
>
> The connection seems to be a bit intermittent, but looking at the
> line figures, is it any wonder?
>
> To be fair, these do change quite a lot over time, and these are
> probably at the worse end.
>
> Is any other device likely to cope better with these conditions,
> e.g. the oft recommended Draytek Vigor?
>
> Or should I tell them they basically have to decide between fast and
> unreliable or slow and reliable?

With that degree of difference in the stats the first thing I would try
would be to plug the router into the test socket behind the NTE5 removable
faceplate assuming there is one. This way you eliminate any problems caused
by the internal wiring. Kraftee may be able to suggest other things to do
because it may well be due to defects in the BT line.

Peter Crosland

"Peter Crosland" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in
news:44f56d81$0$3602$(E-Mail Removed):

>
> With that degree of difference in the stats the first thing I
> would try would be to plug the router into the test socket behind
> the NTE5 removable faceplate assuming there is one. This way you
> eliminate any problems caused by the internal wiring. Kraftee may
> be able to suggest other things to do because it may well be due
> to defects in the BT line.
>

Thanks Peter ... the router is plugged directly into the master, and
there are no extensions on this line at all.

There is an extension cable plugged into the filter which runs to the
fax machine, but hopefully that would not cause any problem. I'll try
removing it for comparison though.

>> With that degree of difference in the stats the first thing I
>> would try would be to plug the router into the test socket behind
>> the NTE5 removable faceplate assuming there is one. This way you
>> eliminate any problems caused by the internal wiring. Kraftee may
>> be able to suggest other things to do because it may well be due
>> to defects in the BT line.
>>
>
> Thanks Peter ... the router is plugged directly into the master, and
> there are no extensions on this line at all.
>
> There is an extension cable plugged into the filter which runs to the
> fax machine, but hopefully that would not cause any problem. I'll try
> removing it for comparison though.

Is there a removable faceplate known as an NTE5? This is square with a side
dimension of about 90mm. I so use the test socket behind the faceplate
because this will isolate all other wiring. Extension cables are notorious
for picking up interference.

Peter Crosland

"Peter Crosland" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in
news:44f5b531$0$3616$(E-Mail Removed):

>>
>> Thanks Peter ... the router is plugged directly into the master,
>> and there are no extensions on this line at all.
>>
>> There is an extension cable plugged into the filter which runs to
>> the fax machine, but hopefully that would not cause any problem.
>> I'll try removing it for comparison though.
>
> Is there a removable faceplate known as an NTE5? This is square
> with a side dimension of about 90mm. I so use the test socket
> behind the faceplate because this will isolate all other wiring.
> Extension cables are notorious for picking up interference.
>


Hi Peter-

I mean something like this (excuse bad ASCII)...


10m Extension 2 way
Lead adaptor
[Fax]-><---------------> [] _
~-> []-->[ ]
| [_]--->||NTE5||
[Phone] Filter
^
|
|
[Router]


In other words, all extension wiring is external and the right side
of the filter. No wiring is connected to the back of the faceplate.

I'll try with all the gubbins removed except the router. I'm
wondering if I can use python or something to log the values every
10 mins and plot over time, as well as ping time maybe.

By the way, in your first reply you said "With that degree of
difference in the stats ...."

To which difference were you referring?

> Hi Peter-
>
> I mean something like this (excuse bad ASCII)...
>
>
> 10m Extension 2 way
> Lead adaptor
> [Fax]-><---------------> [] _
> ~-> []-->[ ]
> | [_]--->||NTE5||
> [Phone] Filter
> ^
> |
> |
> [Router]
>
>
> In other words, all extension wiring is external and the right side
> of the filter. No wiring is connected to the back of the faceplate.

Behind the faceplate is a phone socket. This is known as the test socket.
Plus the router in here via a filter without anything esle connected. Then
try testing it.
>
> I'll try with all the gubbins removed except the router. I'm
> wondering if I can use python or something to log the values every
> 10 mins and plot over time, as well as ping time maybe.
>
> By the way, in your first reply you said "With that degree of
> difference in the stats ...."
>
> To which difference were you referring?

You posted two sets of stats and I assumed they were taken at different
times.

Peter Crosland

John Carlyle-Clarke wrote:
> "Peter Crosland" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in
> news:44f5b531$0$3616$(E-Mail Removed):
>
>>>
>>> Thanks Peter ... the router is plugged directly into the master,
>>> and there are no extensions on this line at all.
>>>
>>> There is an extension cable plugged into the filter which runs to
>>> the fax machine, but hopefully that would not cause any problem.
>>> I'll try removing it for comparison though.
>>
>> Is there a removable faceplate known as an NTE5? This is square
>> with a side dimension of about 90mm. I so use the test socket
>> behind the faceplate because this will isolate all other wiring.
>> Extension cables are notorious for picking up interference.
>>
>
>
> Hi Peter-
>
> I mean something like this (excuse bad ASCII)...
>
>
> 10m Extension 2 way
> Lead adaptor
> [Fax]-><---------------> [] _
> ~-> []-->[ ]
> | [_]--->||NTE5||
> [Phone] Filter
> ^
> |
> |
> [Router]
>
>
> In other words, all extension wiring is external and the right side
> of the filter. No wiring is connected to the back of the faceplate.
>
> I'll try with all the gubbins removed except the router. I'm
> wondering if I can use python or something to log the values every
> 10 mins and plot over time, as well as ping time maybe.
>
> By the way, in your first reply you said "With that degree of
> difference in the stats ...."
>
> To which difference were you referring?

Sorry to but in....but it still may be worth taking that faceplate off
(believe it or not) as there could be problems with the mechanical fit
between the 2, I've even known the faceplate to be full diss before
now on more than a few occasions. Depending on the wiring it may be
appropiate to obtain a faceplate filter as these are normally more
effecient than the plug in type then you could plug both your plugin
extension & your DSL router into the same face plate. This could also
give an improvement due to the 10mtr plugin extension not being the
proper round twisted pair(solid core) but a flat non twisted with
stranded core.

I am only talking about small tweaks/ possible improvements but with
the figures you posted any improvement will help, but being honest if
they are as bad as what you say I'm suprised that is any service at
all.