Linux is impossibly complicated

I am working on building a Linux firewall/router from an old computer. I am
a tech, but not versed in Linux. I find this task to be daunting. What a
crazy system. I have found several solutions (CDRouter, M0n0wall) that I
can get up and running. Major problem is drivers. I want to use a Diamond
Homefree card and a Wifi card as LAN ports. First I have to search and
search to find drivers. Then I don't understand the web pages put up by the
people who write the drivers. There is code, instructions, all kinds of
different files with different extensions. Do you really have to recompile
the kernel just to add a driver? Not to mention then I have to figure out
how to open the iso file, change the files in the iso and burn it back onto
a CD. If I add or change a card, I have to go through the whole process all
over again. How can the average user be expected to do all this? Linux
will never be main stream because it seems that the people developing it
want to keep it part of their secret world. The one good feature about
Windoze is that anyone can click and load a driver and it will then be
accessable to all hardware and software in the system. No brainer.

"Fred Jones" <(E-Mail Removed)> skrev i meddelandet
news:PwGvc.10$(E-Mail Removed)...
> I am working on building a Linux firewall/router from an old computer. I
am
> a tech, but not versed in Linux. I find this task to be daunting. What a
> crazy system. I have found several solutions (CDRouter, M0n0wall) that I
> can get up and running. Major problem is drivers. I want to use a
Diamond
> Homefree card and a Wifi card as LAN ports. First I have to search and
> search to find drivers. Then I don't understand the web pages put up by
the
> people who write the drivers. There is code, instructions, all kinds of
> different files with different extensions. Do you really have to
recompile
> the kernel just to add a driver? Not to mention then I have to figure out
> how to open the iso file, change the files in the iso and burn it back
onto
> a CD. If I add or change a card, I have to go through the whole process
all
> over again. How can the average user be expected to do all this? Linux
> will never be main stream because it seems that the people developing it
> want to keep it part of their secret world. The one good feature about
> Windoze is that anyone can click and load a driver and it will then be
> accessable to all hardware and software in the system. No brainer.
>
>

Why not download a ready to go distro for the task?
http://smoothwall.org/about/

Fred Jones wrote:
> I am working on building a Linux firewall/router from an old computer. I am
> a tech, but not versed in Linux. I find this task to be daunting. What a
> crazy system. I have found several solutions (CDRouter, M0n0wall) that I
> can get up and running. Major problem is drivers. I want to use a Diamond
> Homefree card and a Wifi card as LAN ports. First I have to search and
> search to find drivers.

If those cards are supported by your distribution you could just use the
provided modules (modprobe modulename), if not you could use the
sourcecode from those people to make such a module. Most distributions
will make sure the modules are tested so that's good.

> Then I don't understand the web pages put up by the
> people who write the drivers. There is code, instructions, all kinds of
> different files with different extensions. Do you really have to recompile
> the kernel just to add a driver? Not to mention then I have to figure out
> how to open the iso file, change the files in the iso and burn it back onto
> a CD.

Yeah had the same problem under windows, so what's your point? under
linux you can mount an iso9660 as a loop device
mount -t 9660 -o loop /path/file.iso /mnt/disk

> If I add or change a card, I have to go through the whole process all
> over again. How can the average user be expected to do all this?

Average users are expected to use distributions that do that
automatically for supported networkcards.

> Linux
> will never be main stream because it seems that the people developing it
> want to keep it part of their secret world. The one good feature about
> Windoze is that anyone can click and load a driver and it will then be
> accessable to all hardware and software in the system. No brainer.

The crappy thing about windows is that nobody understands it if it goes
wrong. Feel free to use windows for firewalling as well if that makes
you feel more comfortable.

On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 08:24:35 -0600, Fred Jones wrote:

First of all: I do not understand why did you post this one here. Do you
want to start a flamewar or was it your way to ask for help with a
specific problem.

My experience was that setting up firewall/router using an old machine
(486SX/33) very easy and straightforward. If you want to try this: I based
it on Slackware and used iptables to set up the firewalling part.

> The one good feature about Windoze is that anyone can click and load a
> driver and it will then be accessable to all hardware and software in the
> system.

Could be true if it always works. Once there is a problem it can get
extremely complicated to find get that thing to work.

Fred,

I'm not going say you are wrong, and I'm not going to say
that getting up to speed with linux is easy, but repeat after me:

Linux != Windows, Linux != Windows, Linux != Windows.

Now that we've got past that, there are lots and lots of differences
between linux and Windows. That's not good or bad, just a fact.
You have to accept those differences and learn how to live with them,
or just stick to Windows.

Now, if you were 100% happy with Windows, why are you picking linux
for your application?

WiFi is fairly new, and linux isn't well supported. If I were you,
I'd find an alternative to a Wifi card in the linux box. I happen
to be using a Microsoft ...500 wireless router in bridge mode for that.
Does the trick. Not great, but works.

If you want help, ask a question.

Chris

--
Chris Richmond | I don't speak for Intel & vise versa

On Thu, 3 Jun 2004 08:24:35 -0600, Fred Jones scribbled:

[snip]

> The one good feature about
> Windoze is that anyone can click and load a driver and it will then be
> accessable to all hardware and software in the system. No brainer.

Well, Fred, If you *do* like Windoze so much, why rely on Linux to build
your firewall then? My guess is that the reason is that it's not as
save as uncle Bill would like us all to believe...

Furthermore, I second Conny in her recommendation of the smoothwall
distribution. It's perfect for the job, right 'out of the box', although
I'm not entirely sure whether it will support your cards...

It *is* nice and small, a 45Mb iso file including the full manuals, I'd
like to see Windoze do that...

--
GerardLinux ay tee filternet dee oo tee ann el

ACHTUNG!!
Das machinen is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy
schnappen der spingenwerk, blowenfusen und corkenpoppen mit spitzensparken.
Ist nicht fur gewerken by das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren
keepen handen in das pockets. Relaxen und vatch das blinkenlights!!!

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On 2004-06-03, Fred Jones <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> I am working on building a Linux firewall/router from an old computer. I am
> a tech, but not versed in Linux. I find this task to be daunting. What a
> crazy system. I have found several solutions (CDRouter, M0n0wall) that I
> can get up and running. Major problem is drivers. I want to use a Diamond
> Homefree card and a Wifi card as LAN ports.

[bitch bitch bitch snipped]

Not that you asked (anything), but I'd recommend against putting a WiFi
adapter into any router//firewall/packet filter. The firewall should
be the most secure device on your network, and a WiFi adapter compromises
that (slightly, but still). I'd suggest using two ethernet cards and
connecting the internal end to a switch or hub connected to a WAP. You
could even buy a cheap combo switch/WAP from someone like D-Link or
Netgear.

To address some of your whining, I'm wondering how creating and configuring
a Linux bootable firewall CD compares to, say, creating and configuring a
Windows bootable firewall CD. As a so-called tech, have you tried the
latter? No? Hmm, I guess Windows will never be mainstream because the
people developing it want to keep it part of their secret world.

- --keith

- --
kkeller-(E-Mail Removed)
(try just my userid to email me)
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> Linux will never be main stream because it seems that the people
developing it
> want to keep it part of their secret world.

I understand what you mean, but Windows is far more secret that Linux

Linux = open source )




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On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 08:24:35 -0600, Fred Jones wrote:

> The one good feature about Windoze is that anyone can click and load a
> driver and it will then be accessable to all hardware and software in
> the system. No brainer.

No, that's one of the worst possible things about Windows: far too much of
what it does is wrapped up behind a secretive "no-brainer" button. Too
many people have been "educated" into thinking that this is all running an
OS is about.
What do you do when the button doesn't work or more usually, falls off?


B.
--
A computer without Microsoft is like chocolate cake
without mustard.

On 2004-06-03, Fred Jones <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> I am working on building a Linux firewall/router from an old computer. I am
> a tech, but not versed in Linux. I find this task to be daunting. What a
> crazy system. I have found several solutions (CDRouter, M0n0wall) that I
> can get up and running. Major problem is drivers. I want to use a Diamond
> Homefree card and a Wifi card as LAN ports. First I have to search and
> search to find drivers. Then I don't understand the web pages put up by the
> people who write the drivers. There is code, instructions, all kinds of
> different files with different extensions. Do you really have to recompile
> the kernel just to add a driver?

Not necessarily. You can just compile the driver as a module and use
modprobe to insert it into the running kernel.

But compiling kernels really isn't that difficult. The hardest part is
probably answering all the questions in the configuration routine. Once
you've done that, you can configure a new kernel easily by copying the old
..config file to the new kernel's source tree and running "make oldconfig"
so you only have to answer the questions pertaining to new features.

> Not to mention then I have to figure out
> how to open the iso file, change the files in the iso and burn it back onto
> a CD.

Why would you want to do that?

--

-John ((E-Mail Removed))