Linksys WRT54GS: Half dozen dropouts a day. Solution needed.

I got my WRT54GS a couple of months ago and since then it regularly
drops the wireless connection a half dozen or more times each day.
When this happens, I shut down and restart the router and then reboot
my computer. The signal eventually comes back, but it's always hit or
miss. When it works, the signal is always strong, so it's not a matter
of range. I've called tech support a number of times, but they're
clueless, always coming back to me with a ridiculous explanation of
what the problem might be. Before buying this unit, I was advised by a
friend to avoid it, but I thought it would be worth taking a chance,
since I had an earlier Linksys router (one of the earliest models) with
a range extender and figured it was time to get newer equipment. When
this one works, it's fine. There is, however, no way of knowing when
it's going to misbehave. I'm wondering if this is really a poor choice
or maybe I should return it to Linksys for a replacement.

(E-Mail Removed) wrote:
> I got my WRT54GS a couple of months ago and since then it regularly
> drops the wireless connection a half dozen or more times each day.
> When this happens, I shut down and restart the router and then reboot
> my computer. The signal eventually comes back, but it's always hit or
> miss. When it works, the signal is always strong, so it's not a matter
> of range. I've called tech support a number of times, but they're
> clueless, always coming back to me with a ridiculous explanation of
> what the problem might be. Before buying this unit, I was advised by a
> friend to avoid it, but I thought it would be worth taking a chance,
> since I had an earlier Linksys router (one of the earliest models) with
> a range extender and figured it was time to get newer equipment. When
> this one works, it's fine. There is, however, no way of knowing when
> it's going to misbehave. I'm wondering if this is really a poor choice
> or maybe I should return it to Linksys for a replacement.
>
I have one and am quite pleased with it. I'm using the dd-wrt firmware
(version 23). You might want to try that.

http://dd-wrt.com

(E-Mail Removed) wrote:
> I got my WRT54GS a couple of months ago and since then it regularly
> drops the wireless connection a half dozen or more times each day.
> When this happens, I shut down and restart the router and then reboot
> my computer. The signal eventually comes back, but it's always hit or
> miss. When it works, the signal is always strong, so it's not a matter
> of range. I've called tech support a number of times, but they're
> clueless, always coming back to me with a ridiculous explanation of
> what the problem might be. Before buying this unit, I was advised by a
> friend to avoid it, but I thought it would be worth taking a chance,
> since I had an earlier Linksys router (one of the earliest models) with
> a range extender and figured it was time to get newer equipment. When
> this one works, it's fine. There is, however, no way of knowing when
> it's going to misbehave. I'm wondering if this is really a poor choice
> or maybe I should return it to Linksys for a replacement.
>

I have a WRT54G, and I too experienced issues with drop-outs. However,
after much experimentation I found several factors which after
mitigating them, I have a stable system. I too thought that my signal
strength was good and it was the router's fault but fixing the factors
solved my problem. I suspect that reflections of objects caused a lot of
null points that made positioning very sensitive. The things I did were:

- Moving the WRT54G well away (>2') from the wall, floor and ceiling.
- Using a parabolic antenna reflector on the WRT54G to focus the beam
(http://www.freeantennas.com/)
- Making sure the WRT54G and clients were well away from metal objects
(window frames, waste baskets, vents, ducting, etc)
- get rid of 2.4GHz phones and other devices that may cause interference.

(E-Mail Removed) hath wroth:

>I got my WRT54GS a couple of months ago and since then it regularly
>drops the wireless connection a half dozen or more times each day.

It takes two to tango. What are you using for a wireless client? What
operating system? The problem could be at the client end.

I don't personally use a WRT54GS. However, they are the standard
router for the local free wireless project, which has them scattered
about in coffee shops and hot spots all over Santa Cruz. However,
they all use alternative firmware instead of the stock Linksys
variety. For my WRT54G routers, I use DD-WRT version 2.3 12/25/05
which I highly recommend.

>When this happens, I shut down and restart the router and then reboot
>my computer.

When you do both ends at once, there's no way to determine which end
has initiated the hangup. Next time it happens, dry just rebooting
the router and see if that fixes it. When it happens again after
that, try rebooting just the computer and see if it recovers.

Also, try doing nothing and see if it recovers by itself. Microwave
oven interference tends to be transient and eventually go away.

>The signal eventually comes back, but it's always hit or
>miss.

Could I touble you to be a little less vague? We have it that it
drops 6 times per day, presumeably over an 8 hour user period.
Eventually can be a long time. How long does it take to recover?
After the client reboots? Minutes, hours? This is not a rhetorical
question as I'm trying to determine if the dropouts are caused by
interference, 802.1x authentication failure, encryption re-snyc
failure, or other common mechanism. If the dropouts coincide with
coffee breaks and meals, it's microwave oven interference.

>When it works, the signal is always strong, so it's not a matter
>of range.

You can have a very strong signal and interference will still cause a
disconnect. It's not like FM broadcast, where the strongest signal
wins. It's like a good signal, plus a jamming signal equals lousy
communications. Try changing channels (1, 6 or 11) and see if it
helps.

>I've called tech support a number of times, but they're
>clueless, always coming back to me with a ridiculous explanation of
>what the problem might be.

Maybe they have something useful. What's the rediculous explanation?

>Before buying this unit, I was advised by a
>friend to avoid it, but I thought it would be worth taking a chance,
>since I had an earlier Linksys router (one of the earliest models) with
>a range extender and figured it was time to get newer equipment.

Are you currently using this range extender with your WRT54GS? What
are you using?

>When
>this one works, it's fine. There is, however, no way of knowing when
>it's going to misbehave. I'm wondering if this is really a poor choice
>or maybe I should return it to Linksys for a replacement.

It might be defective. The easiest test is by substitution. Find an
accomplis with a known working laptop with wireless. Have them
connect to your WRT54GS in the same manner in which you're using it.
If it fails the same way, then it's NOT anything on the client end (or
repeater).

Then, try removing the repeater, range extender, or whatever if you
have one. Just simplify things.

If your unspecfied client computer is portable, try it at a hot spot
or coffee shop to see if it works properly.

Eventually, by replacing every part of the puzzle, the culprit will be
identified.

Possible causes of disconnects:
1. 802.1x authentication on XP SP1 (not SP2) setup. If you're *NOT*
using WPA or WPA2 (which require SP2 anyway), turn off 802.1x
authentication.
2. Interference from other wireless access points, microwave ovens,
2.4Ghz cordless phones, 2.4GHz video extensions, etc.
3. Power save feature on the wireless client or wireless adapter.
4. Power save feature in Windoze.
5. Power save features in the computer BIOS.

--
Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> (E-Mail Removed) hath wroth:
>
> >I got my WRT54GS a couple of months ago and since then it regularly
> >drops the wireless connection a half dozen or more times each day.
>
> It takes two to tango. What are you using for a wireless client? What
> operating system? The problem could be at the client end.

All machines use XP. Dropouts take place at the same time on all. All
use the XP client.
>
> I don't personally use a WRT54GS. However, they are the standard
> router for the local free wireless project, which has them scattered
> about in coffee shops and hot spots all over Santa Cruz. However,
> they all use alternative firmware instead of the stock Linksys
> variety. For my WRT54G routers, I use DD-WRT version 2.3 12/25/05
> which I highly recommend.
>

I'll try the different firmware and see if that helps.


> >When this happens, I shut down and restart the router and then reboot
> >my computer.
>
> When you do both ends at once, there's no way to determine which end
> has initiated the hangup. Next time it happens, dry just rebooting
> the router and see if that fixes it. When it happens again after
> that, try rebooting just the computer and see if it recovers.

Sometimes rebooting the router helps. Sometimes just rebooting the
computer helps.
>
> Also, try doing nothing and see if it recovers by itself. Microwave
> oven interference tends to be transient and eventually go away.

The nearest microwave is probably several hundred yards away. Given
the dropout frequency and time of day, I doubt that's the problem.
>
> >The signal eventually comes back, but it's always hit or
> >miss.
>
> Could I touble you to be a little less vague? We have it that it
> drops 6 times per day, presumeably over an 8 hour user period.
> Eventually can be a long time. How long does it take to recover?
> After the client reboots? Minutes, hours? This is not a rhetorical
> question as I'm trying to determine if the dropouts are caused by
> interference, 802.1x authentication failure, encryption re-snyc
> failure, or other common mechanism. If the dropouts coincide with
> coffee breaks and meals, it's microwave oven interference.
>
This morning, for example, I had six dropouts in a five minute period.
I then rebooted and since then there have been no dropouts. This is
nothing new.

> >When it works, the signal is always strong, so it's not a matter
> >of range.
>
> You can have a very strong signal and interference will still cause a
> disconnect. It's not like FM broadcast, where the strongest signal
> wins. It's like a good signal, plus a jamming signal equals lousy
> communications. Try changing channels (1, 6 or 11) and see if it
> helps.
>
> >I've called tech support a number of times, but they're
> >clueless, always coming back to me with a ridiculous explanation of
> >what the problem might be.

Yesterday, I wasted an hour with a technician on the Indian
subcontinent. I had to repeat questions many times and made no
progress. He had me reconfigure the router and said the dropout
problems would go away. Within one minute after he said that, the
dropouts resumed. His subsequent suggestion was to bring each of the
computers back to the supplier and have them fix them.
>
> Maybe they have something useful. What's the rediculous explanation?
>
> >Before buying this unit, I was advised by a
> >friend to avoid it, but I thought it would be worth taking a chance,
> >since I had an earlier Linksys router (one of the earliest models) with
> >a range extender and figured it was time to get newer equipment.
>
> Are you currently using this range extender with your WRT54GS? What
> are you using?

No range extender being used.
>
> >When
> >this one works, it's fine. There is, however, no way of knowing when
> >it's going to misbehave. I'm wondering if this is really a poor choice
> >or maybe I should return it to Linksys for a replacement.
>
> It might be defective. The easiest test is by substitution. Find an
> accomplis with a known working laptop with wireless. Have them
> connect to your WRT54GS in the same manner in which you're using it.
> If it fails the same way, then it's NOT anything on the client end (or
> repeater).
>
> Then, try removing the repeater, range extender, or whatever if you
> have one. Just simplify things.
>
> If your unspecfied client computer is portable, try it at a hot spot
> or coffee shop to see if it works properly.

We've used two of the computers elsewhere and the dropout problem
disappears.
>
> Eventually, by replacing every part of the puzzle, the culprit will be
> identified.

Given the amount of time needed to make this router work properly, I'm
thinking that it's not worth the time to continue. For the small
increment needed to trade up, I'll move to a better router and pray
that I don't need to call Linksys tech support, which was fine when
stateside but dreadful on the other side of the planet.
>
> Possible causes of disconnects:
> 1. 802.1x authentication on XP SP1 (not SP2) setup. If you're *NOT*
> using WPA or WPA2 (which require SP2 anyway), turn off 802.1x
> authentication.
> 2. Interference from other wireless access points, microwave ovens,
> 2.4Ghz cordless phones, 2.4GHz video extensions, etc.
> 3. Power save feature on the wireless client or wireless adapter.
> 4. Power save feature in Windoze.
> 5. Power save features in the computer BIOS.
>
> --
> Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
> 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

"nrwayne" <(E-Mail Removed)> hath wroth:

>All machines use XP. Dropouts take place at the same time on all. All
>use the XP client.

Ok, it's not the client. However, it still can be interference at the
WRT54GS. If you have a high location, installed in a window, that
overlooks an area that may have a substantial number of Wi-Fi
installations, microwave ovens, or cordless phones, you may be picking
up crud through the window. Try putting something substantial between
the potential sources of interference and the WRT54GS.

>> variety. For my WRT54G routers, I use DD-WRT version 2.3 12/25/05
>> which I highly recommend.
>I'll try the different firmware and see if that helps.

Try the 01/16/06 version 2.3 SP1 beta version instead. It fixes a few
problems. Be sure to read the Wiki for the exact flash proceedure,
especially the part where it says to do nothing and wait 2 minutes
after flashing the WRT54GS. There are also an odd proceedure for
doing the WRT54GS v4 router, which has less RAM than the others.

>The nearest microwave is probably several hundred yards away. Given
>the dropout frequency and time of day, I doubt that's the problem.

I just got off the phone with a friend that had a customer with a
flakey wireless problem. I had him email a photo of the roofline
outside the customers window. In the distance, at the same elevation,
there was a Tropos wireless mesh repeater box and dual antennas. I
had him put a frying pan between the access point and the mesh box.
The dropouts were drastically reduced.

>This morning, for example, I had six dropouts in a five minute period.
>I then rebooted and since then there have been no dropouts. This is
>nothing new.

That doesn't follow any obvious pattern. I still suspect
interference. Perhaps a change of location will help. Take the
WRT54GS and one laptop into an RF isolated room, such as a basement or
interior room. Just the WRT54GS and one laptop. Connect to the
internal web server in the WRT54GS and see if the disconects persist.
If it still has a problem, then it's probably a defective WRT54GS.

>Yesterday, I wasted an hour with a technician on the Indian
>subcontinent. I had to repeat questions many times and made no
>progress. He had me reconfigure the router and said the dropout
>problems would go away. Within one minute after he said that, the
>dropouts resumed. His subsequent suggestion was to bring each of the
>computers back to the supplier and have them fix them.

Sigh. The problem with all phone support personalities is that they
don't get their hands dirty. There are many problems that can be
solved over the phone, but topology, path, interference, and stability
problems require hands-on experience.

>No range extender being used.

Ok, that simplifies things considerably.

>We've used two of the computers elsewhere and the dropout problem
>disappears.

Therefore, the computers are fine. Having all of them simultaneously
disconnect also points to a problem at the WRT54GS end.

>Given the amount of time needed to make this router work properly, I'm
>thinking that it's not worth the time to continue. For the small
>increment needed to trade up, I'll move to a better router and pray
>that I don't need to call Linksys tech support, which was fine when
>stateside but dreadful on the other side of the planet.

Well, I charge $75/hr for labor. If it takes me over an hour to deal
with a typical commodity router, it gets replaced. I'll usually do a
flash update and reset, but not much more. I have a small pile in the
office (and at home) that are the result of installation failures of
one sorts or other. In the under $100 class, I don't expect much in
the way of quality. Considering the time you've already spent, I
would probably have tried another router much earlier.

--
Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Based on your comments, I think I'll try the firmware update first.
Please direct me to where I can find specific instructions for doing
so.
It's possible that interference may be an issue, but we've experimented
with laptops in line of sight about 20 feet away and the dropouts
continued.
We had a prior Linksys router BEFW11S4 together with Linksys' first
range extender. It worked OK for several years, but we traded for the
WRT54GS to get 802.11g compatibility. So far, not a good trade.
In the event that the firmware update is unsuccessful, I'm wondering
whether I should bother trying to get a new unit from Linksys or
whether to get a better router. If the latter, what do you suggest?
I appreciate the considerable thought that you've put into coming up
with a solution for this. Many thanks.
Russell

On 23 Jan 2006 13:03:27 -0800, "nrwayne" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>Based on your comments, I think I'll try the firmware update first.
>Please direct me to where I can find specific instructions for doing
>so.

http://wrt-wiki.bsr-clan.de/index.ph...T54G.2FGL.2FGS
Note that the proceedure is slightly different for the WRT54GS v4.

New version just out today (01/23/06) at:
http://dd-wrt.gruftie.com/dd-wrtv2/d...2F2006+-+0123/
I'm not going to recommend which exact version to download as I don't
know the exact hardware version of your WRT54GS.

>It's possible that interference may be an issue, but we've experimented
>with laptops in line of sight about 20 feet away and the dropouts
>continued.

It's not how strong a signal you get. Even the strongest signal can
be trashed by interference. The interference does not so much clobber
the strong signal. It fills the spaces in between symbols with
"noise" that makes it difficult to determine if one his hearing a zero
or a one. You can have a very strong signal and intereference will
still be a problem.

>We had a prior Linksys router BEFW11S4 together with Linksys' first
>range extender. It worked OK for several years, but we traded for the
>WRT54GS to get 802.11g compatibility. So far, not a good trade.
>In the event that the firmware update is unsuccessful, I'm wondering
>whether I should bother trying to get a new unit from Linksys or
>whether to get a better router. If the latter, what do you suggest?

If you had asked me what wireless router to buy, I would have
suggested the WRT54G or WRT54GS. That's mostly because of all the
nifty features found in the DD-WRT alternative firmware.

For 2nd best, I've had good luck with Netgear WGR-614 v5
http://www.netgear.com/products/details/WGR614.php
Current hardware version is v6. These are not the geatest or do they
have any unique features. Functional mediocrity would be a good
description. I use them because I can get them cheap and they seem to
work without much difficulty. The V4 hardware had some radio problems
that resulted in lousy range. V5 is fine. I haven't tried V6.

If you want to spend LOTS more money, I use some Sonicwall TZ-170w
wireless routers with good results. Also some older Cisco 350 series
access points with external routers. Since I only see defective
routers, I can certainly tell you which models to avoid, but
recommending something that works is difficult.

>I appreciate the considerable thought that you've put into coming up
>with a solution for this. Many thanks.

--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558 (E-Mail Removed)
# http://802.11junk.com (E-Mail Removed)
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On 23 Jan 2006 13:03:27 -0800, "nrwayne" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
> >Based on your comments, I think I'll try the firmware update first.
> >Please direct me to where I can find specific instructions for doing
> >so.
>
> http://wrt-wiki.bsr-clan.de/index.ph...T54G.2FGL.2FGS
> Note that the proceedure is slightly different for the WRT54GS v4.
>
> New version just out today (01/23/06) at:
> http://dd-wrt.gruftie.com/dd-wrtv2/d...2F2006+-+0123/
> I'm not going to recommend which exact version to download as I don't
> know the exact hardware version of your WRT54GS.

I'll check with BrainSlayer on that. I've read the wiki and feel
reasonably comfortable with what's needed.
>
> >It's possible that interference may be an issue, but we've experimented
> >with laptops in line of sight about 20 feet away and the dropouts
> >continued.
>
> It's not how strong a signal you get. Even the strongest signal can
> be trashed by interference. The interference does not so much clobber
> the strong signal. It fills the spaces in between symbols with
> "noise" that makes it difficult to determine if one his hearing a zero
> or a one. You can have a very strong signal and intereference will
> still be a problem.
>
> >We had a prior Linksys router BEFW11S4 together with Linksys' first
> >range extender. It worked OK for several years, but we traded for the
> >WRT54GS to get 802.11g compatibility. So far, not a good trade.
> >In the event that the firmware update is unsuccessful, I'm wondering
> >whether I should bother trying to get a new unit from Linksys or
> >whether to get a better router. If the latter, what do you suggest?
>
> If you had asked me what wireless router to buy, I would have
> suggested the WRT54G or WRT54GS. That's mostly because of all the
> nifty features found in the DD-WRT alternative firmware.

Since I've got your first choice, it seems possible that this unit's
defective. I was considering Belkin's Pre-N Router, but since you
didn't mention it, I wonder if that makes sense. It has, however,
gotten, pretty good feedback and seems to have greater potential than
then WRT54GS. Any thoughts?
>
> For 2nd best, I've had good luck with Netgear WGR-614 v5
> http://www.netgear.com/products/details/WGR614.php
> Current hardware version is v6. These are not the geatest or do they
> have any unique features. Functional mediocrity would be a good
> description. I use them because I can get them cheap and they seem to
> work without much difficulty. The V4 hardware had some radio problems
> that resulted in lousy range. V5 is fine. I haven't tried V6.
>
> If you want to spend LOTS more money, I use some Sonicwall TZ-170w
> wireless routers with good results. Also some older Cisco 350 series
> access points with external routers. Since I only see defective
> routers, I can certainly tell you which models to avoid, but
> recommending something that works is difficult.
>
> >I appreciate the considerable thought that you've put into coming up
> >with a solution for this. Many thanks.
>
> --
> # Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
> # 831-336-2558 (E-Mail Removed)
> # http://802.11junk.com (E-Mail Removed)
> # http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

On 23 Jan 2006 18:23:23 -0800, "nrwayne" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>I was considering Belkin's Pre-N Router, but since you
>didn't mention it, I wonder if that makes sense. It has, however,
>gotten, pretty good feedback and seems to have greater potential than
>then WRT54GS. Any thoughts?

I've never played with Belkin Pre-N devices. Rumor has it that they
work and offer a substantial range and connection reliability
improvement. Seems like a worthy choice.

However, I have an "issue" with Belkin. I've bought far too many
Belkin products that are either defective out of the box or failed
prematurely. Most could be exchanged under warranty, but it was
always an ordeal. Another problem that I have with Belkin is the lack
of firmware and driver updates. Many of their products are on either
their initial release or perhaps one fast fix issued immediately on
initial product release. I have several of their products (P56768-A,
F5D6231-4, etc) on the shelf that have obvious and known bugs or
problems, that were never fixed. At least the other vendors update
products almost continuously and often for products they no longer
sell. I also had to deal with one of Belkin's PCMCIA cards, where the
downloaded driver from their web pile was trashed and the only driver
that worked was the one from the original CDROM (which was lost).

I have problems with other low end vendors (DLink, Linksys, and
Netgear), but never to this degree. I just looked at my pile of
rejected rebates. 4 cards from Belkin totalling $25.

--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558 (E-Mail Removed)
# http://802.11junk.com (E-Mail Removed)
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS