Line too long, cant synch? best router?

Trying to bring up any broadband on a very long line.

BT speed checker says 400-500K should work. Best bet would be a 512K
fixed service.

WE have ADSL max on the link, but two routers blinked a but, but failed
to make anything of it.


Several questions to ask for any ideas.

(i) there is a much nearer ADSL exchange than the one we are connected
to. Why would BT use the further one?

(ii)Assuming its 'because that's the way the wires run' is there any
hope for sensible money of getting them run another way?

(iii) Is there anything BT can do to e.g. up the transmitter power at
their end? Assuming the downlink is the greatest attenuation as it uses
the higher frequencies.

(iv) BT will be doing a site visit to assess the power next week. If
they purse their lips and suck their teeth, is there any hope that a new
router would work, and, if so, which one?

(v) Is there any other cunning wheeze we might tray before going satellite?


So far we have tried a D-LINK 3604 and a Netgear DG384, IIRC. Both work
very well elsewhere.

For interest, the number is

01603 872738 and the postcode NR9 5QY

If you look that up, you will note it goes to the Reepham exhange. The
Sparham exchange is a LOT closer.

And oddity is that LYNG, which is further from Reepaam than we are..by
half a mile, seems to have broadband..might it be the cables run to Lyng
first, then double back?

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> If you look that up, you will note it goes to the Reepham exhange. The
> Sparham exchange is a LOT closer.
>
> And oddity is that LYNG, which is further from Reepaam than we are..by
> half a mile, seems to have broadband..might it be the cables run to Lyng
> first, then double back?
>

Old cables, later added exchanges maybe? I'd hope that BT would see the
logic of connecting you to the closest one.

--
Adrian C

Comments in-line ...

"The Natural Philosopher" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:hhi19g$4q1$(E-Mail Removed)...
> Trying to bring up any broadband on a very long line.
>
> BT speed checker says 400-500K should work. Best bet would be a 512K fixed
> service.
>
> WE have ADSL max on the link, but two routers blinked a but, but failed to
> make anything of it.
>
>
> Several questions to ask for any ideas.
>
> (i) there is a much nearer ADSL exchange than the one we are connected to.
> Why would BT use the further one?
>
> (ii)Assuming its 'because that's the way the wires run' is there any hope
> for sensible money of getting them run another way?

Put simply, no. If you proposed running a large business from those
premises and wanted fibre to provide 100Mbits then a budget of around £100K
should help.

> (iii) Is there anything BT can do to e.g. up the transmitter power at
> their end? Assuming the downlink is the greatest attenuation as it uses
> the higher frequencies.

I doubt it - there will be a maximum that they can put into the line at the
exchange to prevent unacceptable crosstalk on other lines

> (iv) BT will be doing a site visit to assess the power next week. If they
> purse their lips and suck their teeth, is there any hope that a new router
> would work, and, if so, which one?

Have you any idea of the actual cable length and material? If it's less
than 8km and copper then they should be able to get something working. They
may have to replace sections of the the cable and repair all the joints.

You could try a Vigor V2600 with long-line firmware. If you need to borrow
one I can help, and am based near Thetford so not too far away.

> (v) Is there any other cunning wheeze we might tray before going
> satellite?

I take it you have a professional ISP working with you on this (i.e. Andrews
& Arnold, or Zen.) That way at least they will be prepared to get BT out to
look at the problem.

> So far we have tried a D-LINK 3604 and a Netgear DG384, IIRC. Both work
> very well elsewhere.
>
> For interest, the number is
>
> 01603 872738 and the postcode NR9 5QY
>
> If you look that up, you will note it goes to the Reepham exhange. The
> Sparham exchange is a LOT closer.
>
> And oddity is that LYNG, which is further from Reepaam than we are..by
> half a mile, seems to have broadband..might it be the cables run to Lyng
> first, then double back?

Another idea is to find a friend in Lyng where you could set up a wireless
link. You need line-of-sight and some civil engineering capacity to erect
suitable aerial masts. Budget £2,000. I've done this very successfuly in
the area around Holbeach St Matthew - but it is very flat there - even then
we had to trim some trees. Client was a farmer who provided the masts and
erected them.

Finally, get a ***very senior*** BT executive to move in as an immediate
neighbour. Then apply pressure ....

Aternatively ... move to a better location.

--
Graham J

The Natural Philosopher <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
[snip]
>
> (iv) BT will be doing a site visit to assess the power next week. If
> they purse their lips and suck their teeth, is there any hope that a new
> router would work, and, if so, which one?
>
The oft recommended router for getting the best out of a weak/poor
signal is the 2Wire 2700HGV otherwise known as a BT Business Hub. You
can still find them on Ebay, often un-BTed.

--
Chris Green

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> Trying to bring up any broadband on a very long line.
>
> BT speed checker says 400-500K should work. Best bet would be a 512K
> fixed service.
>
> WE have ADSL max on the link, but two routers blinked a but, but
> failed to make anything of it.
>
>
> Several questions to ask for any ideas.
>
> (i) there is a much nearer ADSL exchange than the one we are connected
> to. Why would BT use the further one?
>
> (ii)Assuming its 'because that's the way the wires run' is there any
> hope for sensible money of getting them run another way?
>
> (iii) Is there anything BT can do to e.g. up the transmitter power at
> their end? Assuming the downlink is the greatest attenuation as it
> uses the higher frequencies.
>
> (iv) BT will be doing a site visit to assess the power next week. If
> they purse their lips and suck their teeth, is there any hope that a
> new router would work, and, if so, which one?
>
> (v) Is there any other cunning wheeze we might tray before going
> satellite?
>
> So far we have tried a D-LINK 3604 and a Netgear DG384, IIRC. Both
> work very well elsewhere.
>
> For interest, the number is
>
> 01603 872738 and the postcode NR9 5QY
>
> If you look that up, you will note it goes to the Reepham exhange. The
> Sparham exchange is a LOT closer.
>
> And oddity is that LYNG, which is further from Reepaam than we are..by
> half a mile, seems to have broadband..might it be the cables run to
> Lyng first, then double back?

I have found netgears pretty good, but also strangely the voyager 105 usb
modem will sync when some others wont.

I assume you have tried the test socket behind the master socket? Internal
wiring can make a massive difference.

Graham J wrote:
> Comments in-line ...
>
> "The Natural Philosopher" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:hhi19g$4q1$(E-Mail Removed)...
>> Trying to bring up any broadband on a very long line.
>>
>> BT speed checker says 400-500K should work. Best bet would be a 512K fixed
>> service.
>>
>> WE have ADSL max on the link, but two routers blinked a but, but failed to
>> make anything of it.
>>
>>
>> Several questions to ask for any ideas.
>>
>> (i) there is a much nearer ADSL exchange than the one we are connected to.
>> Why would BT use the further one?
>>
>> (ii)Assuming its 'because that's the way the wires run' is there any hope
>> for sensible money of getting them run another way?
>
> Put simply, no. If you proposed running a large business from those
> premises and wanted fibre to provide 100Mbits then a budget of around £100K
> should help.
>

Mmm. not really that budget..


>> (iii) Is there anything BT can do to e.g. up the transmitter power at
>> their end? Assuming the downlink is the greatest attenuation as it uses
>> the higher frequencies.
>
> I doubt it - there will be a maximum that they can put into the line at the
> exchange to prevent unacceptable crosstalk on other lines
>

yes, but one line at +6dB wouldnt hurt THAT much..


>> (iv) BT will be doing a site visit to assess the power next week. If they
>> purse their lips and suck their teeth, is there any hope that a new router
>> would work, and, if so, which one?
>
> Have you any idea of the actual cable length and material? If it's less
> than 8km and copper then they should be able to get something working. They
> may have to replace sections of the the cable and repair all the joints.
>


The checker on Kitz.co.uk reckons 6km more or less.
And suggests fixed 512Kbps would be possible.



> You could try a Vigor V2600 with long-line firmware. If you need to borrow
> one I can help, and am based near Thetford so not too far away.
>

Really? On my way when I visit there then!


>> (v) Is there any other cunning wheeze we might tray before going
>> satellite?
>
> I take it you have a professional ISP working with you on this (i.e. Andrews
> & Arnold, or Zen.) That way at least they will be prepared to get BT out to
> look at the problem.

Oh, its IDNET who have been superb. No argument, and BT are being
scheduled to visit.

I assume they will stuff a meter on the line and say 'aha, 70dB
attenuation. Hmm..'


>
>> So far we have tried a D-LINK 3604 and a Netgear DG384, IIRC. Both work
>> very well elsewhere.
>>
>> For interest, the number is
>>
>> 01603 872738 and the postcode NR9 5QY
>>
>> If you look that up, you will note it goes to the Reepham exhange. The
>> Sparham exchange is a LOT closer.
>>
>> And oddity is that LYNG, which is further from Reepaam than we are..by
>> half a mile, seems to have broadband..might it be the cables run to Lyng
>> first, then double back?
>
> Another idea is to find a friend in Lyng where you could set up a wireless
> link. You need line-of-sight and some civil engineering capacity to erect
> suitable aerial masts. Budget £2,000. I've done this very successfuly in
> the area around Holbeach St Matthew - but it is very flat there - even then
> we had to trim some trees. Client was a farmer who provided the masts and
> erected them.
>

Its a bit tricky. I've done this as well once.

> Finally, get a ***very senior*** BT executive to move in as an immediate
> neighbour. Then apply pressure ....
>
> Aternatively ... move to a better location.
>

I did say that to the MD of this company, but its ideal from many other
perspectives.

'I'm going there: You are the IT guru: Make it work!'

To be honest, I can make it work if ANY connectivity is present. We can
do low level synchronisation of the data overnight betwen this rather
remote site and any of tow others that have better connectivity.. at
very slow speed.

But a modem would be fiendishly expensive.

Smurf wrote:
>
>
> I assume you have tried the test socket behind the master socket? Internal
> wiring can make a massive difference.
>

Oh yes. There IS no internal wiring anyway. Line fresh installed and
hanging in mid air off BT drop cable when I walked in..:-)

Now relocated to a better place. And screwed to a wall. Radical concept, BT.

Oddly enough, the master socket doesn't seem to be a master socket.
Phone wont ring...dials out though. Nasty phone, circa 1965 it looks.
Newer phones will be installed ;-)




>

[snip]

> The checker on Kitz.co.uk reckons 6km more or less.
> And suggests fixed 512Kbps would be possible.

Near Snetterton a client had a reliable 256k on 8km line length with over
80dB attenuation

>> You could try a Vigor V2600 with long-line firmware. If you need to
>> borrow one I can help, and am based near Thetford so not too far away.
>>
>
> Really? On my way when I visit there then!

Let me know a day or two in advance so I can put the correct firmware on it
....

--
Graham J

Ato_Zee wrote:
> On 31-Dec-2009, (E-Mail Removed) wrote:
>
>>> (iv) BT will be doing a site visit to assess the power next week. If
>>> they purse their lips and suck their teeth, is there any hope that a new
>>> router would work, and, if so, which one?
>
> First thing is to have the router next to the master socket and
> a decent filter, initially it is best to test without a filter or any
> phones connected.

Oh FFS. who do you think I am?

WTF did you think was the FIRST THING I DID?


> Houses can generate a lot of HF noise,

Its not a house.

> commutatator motors
> in washing machines, vacuum cleaners, energy saving lamps
> have two HF switching power transistors, microwaves etc etc.

Ther is NOTHING EKSE RUNNING><

Ita a fucking cold empty silent factory building OK? Or it will be when
we have fisnihed. Right bnow its an old COW shed.



> Also keep about a foot between the router and its PSU.
> You can chain two cheap filters for extra filtering without
> affecting the phones voice quality, or buy one of the (better?)
> more expensive ones, research first.


Oh FFS are you really as thick as you pretend? the first thing is router
straight in the test socket, no filters no phone nada. Switch off
everything but the PC configuring it OK?


> As you are unlikely on an extreme line to sync above plain
> ADSL you could consider a Draytek Vigor 2600 with long
> line flash, the long line flash seem to lift the high frequency
> gain, to compensate for the long line HF loss. Should be
> cheap to find on eBay as few want plain ADSL nowdays, it
> doesn't come with wireless.
> Can be better than some modern modems which keep
> trying to negotiate ADSL+, failing, and the line gets
> treated as unstable.
> The 2700HGV is also a sound well performing modem,
> or go for one of the modems that work with DMTtools
> so you can set your own target SNR until you get stable
> sync.
> Cellphone network dongles are getting popular if one
> of the networks has good coverage and bandwidth charges
> are falling with competition.

Do you really think that anywhere at the end of a 6km piece of BT wire
has a cat's chance in hell of even getting any mobile signal? let alone 3G?

What a plonker.

Grant wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> Trying to bring up any broadband on a very long line.
>
> My line is fairly long, attenuation is 68.5dB.
>
> Both an ex-BT 2700HGV and a Sky-branded DG834GT will sync. The 2700HGV
> squeezes a little more speed out of the line than the Netgear.
>
I fear we are beyond that attenuation..DG sniffed a few times. But
turned away in disgust.


> HTH.
>
>