Line sync help required

Back again for more advice, my recents successes only got me another
troublesome broadband installation to look at. I'll describe as best I can
the installation but the timeing of some things is perhaps not too accurate.
I seem to being drip fed bits of info when I ask the right questions!

Its a house which has had BT broadband for quite a while. It has a main BT
socket and two extension sockets. Problem is broadband only works in the
garage (Main BT socket located there) so the children are almost frozen in
the evenings. A BT engineer visited and declared that the ext socket
required to work was too far from the main socket and would require "better
BT spec cable" (Whatever that is) A spark was got and a new cable was ran
from the main socket (Face plate has a filterd DSL connection and phone
point) to first extension which has a new double phone socket face plate.
One side being the existing installation (Looped to the other ext socket)
and the other being for the broadband. I've tried everything I can think of
but I can't get sync on this extension. I've disconnected the existing
installation and only had the new cable connected. I've only used pins 2 & 5
on this but still no sync. Best guess I'd say the cable run is no more than
15 meters, perhaps not even be that long.

The only thing I don't really like but I don't know if it will make a
difference is that the main BT socket is mounted within the cabinet where
the electrical consumer unit is mounted. The phone cables seem to run up a
wooden duct with the mains cables and cross the ceiling to the house. I've
no idea if above the ceiling they are seperated from the mains cables.

So anyone got any thoughts?

TIA ... John

PS: They use a notebook at this house. Wireless is the answer but the
wireless router didn't want to play ball. Its a BT Voyager 2110. I can't
access the advanced menu as the usual u/n p/w of admin admin doesn't work. I
took my router to the house and set it up so for the time being everyones
happy. (Kids no longer blue coloured) Anyone know the 2110's u/n & p/w or if
it should be admin admin how to reset it to defaults. I'm about to press the
reset button, fingers crossed )

"JC" wrote in message

> PS: They use a notebook at this house. Wireless is the answer but the
> wireless router didn't want to play ball. Its a BT Voyager 2110. I can't
> access the advanced menu as the usual u/n p/w of admin admin doesn't work.
> I took my router to the house and set it up so for the time being
> everyones happy. (Kids no longer blue coloured) Anyone know the 2110's u/n
> & p/w or if it should be admin admin how to reset it to defaults. I'm
> about to press the reset button, fingers crossed )


Reset button on the router seems to have done the trick. u/n & p/w now admin
admin again. Still have the more major problem of the extension socket that
won't sync so any advice appreciated.

Ta ... John

JC wrote :
> Back again for more advice, my recents successes only got me another
> troublesome broadband installation to look at. I'll describe as best I can
> the installation but the timeing of some things is perhaps not too accurate.
> I seem to being drip fed bits of info when I ask the right questions!
>
> Its a house which has had BT broadband for quite a while. It has a main BT
> socket and two extension sockets. Problem is broadband only works in the
> garage (Main BT socket located there) so the children are almost frozen in
> the evenings. A BT engineer visited and declared that the ext socket required
> to work was too far from the main socket and would require "better BT spec
> cable" (Whatever that is) A spark was got and a new cable was ran from the
> main socket (Face plate has a filterd DSL connection and phone point) to
> first extension which has a new double phone socket face plate. One side
> being the existing installation (Looped to the other ext socket) and the
> other being for the broadband. I've tried everything I can think of but I
> can't get sync on this extension. I've disconnected the existing installation
> and only had the new cable connected. I've only used pins 2 & 5 on this but
> still no sync. Best guess I'd say the cable run is no more than 15 meters,
> perhaps not even be that long.

If it's a BT filtered faceplate, the extension will be wired on the
/filtered/ side of the faceplate - broadband won't work on the filtered
side. Once you introduce a filtered faceplate, the only place the
router/modem should be plugged in is the RJ11 socket on the faceplate,
which is unfiltered.

You can get filtered faceplates that have two lots of punchdowns on the
back, to allow you to run separate filtered & non-filtered extensions,
however, I doubt this is the case here, though.

In order to have the filtered faceplate in the garage, you will need to
run two pairs to two separate extensions, or move the filtered
faceplate from the garage & put it where your new double socket is, in
the house.

"Jono" wrote in message

> If it's a BT filtered faceplate, the extension will be wired on the
> /filtered/ side of the faceplate - broadband won't work on the filtered
> side. Once you introduce a filtered faceplate, the only place the
> router/modem should be plugged in is the RJ11 socket on the faceplate,
> which is unfiltered.
>
> You can get filtered faceplates that have two lots of punchdowns on the
> back, to allow you to run separate filtered & non-filtered extensions,
> however, I doubt this is the case here, though.
>
> In order to have the filtered faceplate in the garage, you will need to
> run two pairs to two separate extensions, or move the filtered faceplate
> from the garage & put it where your new double socket is, in the house.

The filtered face plate has a pic of a computer (RJ11?) on one side and a
phone on the other. It says V1.0 on the front of it if that helps. There are
onle one set of connections on the back which are 2,3 & 5. As I said I've
tried only using 2 & 5 with no success.

Have I got this right. Are you saying I should replace this face plate with
an ordinary BT main socket one and either have the filtered face plate on
the ext socket I wish to use or use an ordinary phone socket and a
microfilter?

Ta ... John

Ta ... John

JC wrote:

> Have I got this right. Are you saying I should replace this face plate with
> an ordinary BT main socket one and either have the filtered face plate on
> the ext socket I wish to use or use an ordinary phone socket and a
> microfilter?

Careful

If you don't do things right from here in, you could make a bad
situation worse.

You have presumably a filtered / splitter half height subscriber
faceplate on a master socket with a plug in customer module.

The *proper* solution now is to install a new box with an rj 45 / cat 5
faceplate (call this box A) next to the master socket, run cat 5 cable
from that faceplate to a similar box and faceplate (call this box B)
where you want the dsl modem, and use a cat 5 patch cable to link the rj
45 socket on the splitter faceplate to box A.

So then you have something like this:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/anne-ma...ones/adsl1.gif

Thick coloured lines are electrical connections.

If you don't understand that diagram, you probably shouldn't be doing this!

This might help too:

http://www.clarity.it/telecoms/adsl_faceplate.htm

Now plug the DSL modem into box B.

This arrangement will maintain the filtering and integrity of all the
wiring and the signals they carry.

It is probably possible to use the newly installed phone cable instead
of cat 5 between boxes A and B, provided that the cable is up to normal
telephone cable spec (twisted pair etc), and you can work out which wire
pair you need to connect on the RJ 45 sockets, sorry but I don't know
which of the 4 RJ45 pairs you need to use, someone else might.

Denis McMahon

"Denis McMahon" wrote in message

<snip Denis advice>

Thanks for the advice Denis. However its mostly went straight over my head,
I'm no telecoms technician but as a time served maint spark and currently
been working as an instrument technician then I feel that given the correct
advice I'm capable of making the necessary changes.

I'll explain again as either I didn't do it very well the first time or I am
to thick to understand! The current BT main socket has a filtered face
plate. One RJ11 socket and one phone socket, the wireless router is plugged
into the RJ11 and syncs/works fine. A cable is run from the back of the face
plate (Only three connection 2,3 &5) to the first of two extension sockets.
This is the one required to use the router, cable loops from here to the
second ext socket. The first extension socket is a double but the two
sockets are seperate. A cable is run from the back of the BT main socket
(Paralleled connections) to this seperate phone point. Its a heavier twisted
pairs solid core cable.

All I want to do is move the router in from the garage, plug it into this
ext socket via a microfilter and get it working. I'm not at all sure why I'd
want to install RJ45 network connection points all over the place?

Ta .. John

On 2007-02-04, JC <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> I'll explain again as either I didn't do it very well the first time or I am
> to thick to understand! The current BT main socket has a filtered face
> plate. One RJ11 socket and one phone socket, the wireless router is plugged
> into the RJ11 and syncs/works fine. A cable is run from the back of the face
> plate (Only three connection 2,3 &5) to the first of two extension sockets.
> This is the one required to use the router, cable loops from here to the
> second ext socket. The first extension socket is a double but the two
> sockets are seperate. A cable is run from the back of the BT main socket
> (Paralleled connections) to this seperate phone point. Its a heavier twisted
> pairs solid core cable.

I'm only barely following this, but it seems like you've got this backwards.
The sockets which are wired from the back of the face plate can't be used
for the router. They can only be used for phones. You can plug the
phones into these without using filters, even.

The socket that is wired from the back of the BT main socket is the
one where a router might work when plugged in. You shouldn't plug a
phone into this one (though the phone should work if you do). You
don't need a filter for the router, for that matter.

> All I want to do is move the router in from the garage, plug it into this
> ext socket via a microfilter and get it working. I'm not at all sure why I'd
> want to install RJ45 network connection points all over the place?

Installing the RJ45s would be the correct thing to do if you were doing
the wiring yourself, since you aren't supposed to wire stuff to the
back of the BT main socket. What the BT guy did is a bit sleazy, but
it should work if you can find the right socket to plug the router
into.

Dennis Ferguson

"Dennis Ferguson" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> On 2007-02-04, JC <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>> I'll explain again as either I didn't do it very well the first time or I
>> am
>> to thick to understand! The current BT main socket has a filtered face
>> plate. One RJ11 socket and one phone socket, the wireless router is
>> plugged
>> into the RJ11 and syncs/works fine. A cable is run from the back of the
>> face
>> plate (Only three connection 2,3 &5) to the first of two extension
>> sockets.
>> This is the one required to use the router, cable loops from here to the
>> second ext socket. The first extension socket is a double but the two
>> sockets are seperate. A cable is run from the back of the BT main socket
>> (Paralleled connections) to this seperate phone point. Its a heavier
>> twisted
>> pairs solid core cable.
>
> I'm only barely following this, but it seems like you've got this
> backwards.
> The sockets which are wired from the back of the face plate can't be used
> for the router. They can only be used for phones. You can plug the
> phones into these without using filters, even.

That one catches a lot of people out - including me the first time I
encountered one of those filtered sockets. I thought a filtered socket was
simply a conventional socket with a built-in microfilter, and that the
onward feed from the back of the socket to remote sockets was unfiltered and
would contain both phone and broadband signals. But that's not the case. As
Dennis has said, a filtered face plate acts as a microfilter at this socket
but also only feeds the filtered phone-but-not-broadband signal on to the
additional sockets.

A customer had had a filtered socket installed by BT whilst other phoneline
work was being carried out in the house - apparently the engineer
volunteered to do this unasked, saying to the customer "if I fit a filtered
socket you won't need a separate filter" without explaing that by doing so
he was scuppering any chance of putting the router anywhere else in the
house if she decided to move her PC and router or if it became necessary to
move the router because wireless coverage in its original position was
insufficient.

There needs to be better education of customers by BT of the *implications*
of fitting a filtered faceplate - that the broadband signal only goes as far
as the filtered socket and no further.

JC wrote:
> "Jono" wrote in message
>
>> If it's a BT filtered faceplate, the extension will be wired on the
>> /filtered/ side of the faceplate - broadband won't work on the filtered
>> side. Once you introduce a filtered faceplate, the only place the
>> router/modem should be plugged in is the RJ11 socket on the faceplate,
>> which is unfiltered.
>>
>> You can get filtered faceplates that have two lots of punchdowns on the
>> back, to allow you to run separate filtered & non-filtered extensions,
>> however, I doubt this is the case here, though.
>>
>> In order to have the filtered faceplate in the garage, you will need to
>> run two pairs to two separate extensions, or move the filtered faceplate
>> from the garage & put it where your new double socket is, in the house.
>
> The filtered face plate has a pic of a computer (RJ11?) on one side and a
> phone on the other. It says V1.0 on the front of it if that helps. There are
> onle one set of connections on the back which are 2,3 & 5. As I said I've
> tried only using 2 & 5 with no success.
>
> Have I got this right. Are you saying I should replace this face plate with
> an ordinary BT main socket one and either have the filtered face plate on
> the ext socket I wish to use or use an ordinary phone socket and a
> microfilter?
>
> Ta ... John
>
> Ta ... John
>

Pretty much so, yes.

Jono wrote:

> JC wrote:

>> Have I got this right. Are you saying I should replace this face plate
>> with an ordinary BT main socket one and either have the filtered face
>> plate on the ext socket I wish to use or use an ordinary phone socket
>> and a microfilter?

> Pretty much so, yes.

No! No! No! No! No! A hundred times No!

A filtered faceplate only fits a master socket.

You shouldn't really fit extra master sockets (although doing so
shouldn't break things, it's not spec). Fitting extra master sockets may
increase snr and adversely affect adsl speeds, and without knowing the
electrical layout of extension phone sockets in the house, it's not safe
to say that simply putting a splitter faceplate on the socket where you
want to use the router will work.

I already posted a simple diagram, and a link to a page with a good
layman's writeup.

Please refer back to my diagram at
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/anne-ma...ones/adsl1.gif

Blue line in from BT goes to the master socket backplate, passes through
the line protection and bell module in the backplate, and is fed to the
splitter faceplate from the backplate socket to the faceplate plug, in
the faceplate the adsl and voice signals are seperated by filters.

The voice signal is available (a) on the front panel BT style socket,
and (b) on the rear of the faceplate on a connection section for voice
extensions. All the telephone extensions of this line in the premises
are fed directly or indirectly from this connection section.

The adsl signal is only available on the rj45 connection on the front of
the faceplate. To extend this connection to the location that you want
the adsl modem, you have to extend the adsl connection using a suitable
twisted pair. BT internal cable eg cw1308 should be suitable, and it
really only needs to use 1 pair, although using cat5 also means that
people won't get confused in future.

At present you have a master socket in the garage with a splitter
faceplate, and extension telephony sockets wired to the extension
connector, what you need to do is get the adsl signal from the splitter
faceplate to the adsl modem.

The correct, best and proper way to do this (method 1 above) is to
install a twisted pair (ideally cat 5) run from the faceplate to the
adsl modem, with a patch cable to the faceplate and the adsl modem
plugged in at the other end. The twisted pair cable would be the light
green one on my diagram, and the patch cable the light blue / cyan one.
As I said before, you might get away with using telephony cable, and the
adsl signal at this point is only on one pair, but I don't know which pair.

The alternative (method 2 above) is to use the original master faceplate
and not the splitter faceplate at the master socket in the garage, and
use a microfilter in every telephone socket in the house to split adsl
and telephony signals. Using this method you will probably get poorer
adsl performance but it should work. Also using this method you only use
1 pair (normally the blue pair) of the extension wiring cable to connect
the "2" and "5" terminals of the master faceplate to the 2 and 5
positions of the extension sockets.

Trying to do other things may lead to (a) adsl and / or telephony not
working properly on some or all sockets and (b) possibly damaged
equipment (although I've personally never heard of it happening) from
exposure to wrong frequency signals.

Also, doing anything else is a total bodge job, and the problem with
such bodge jobs is that you need a really good understanding of how it
all works and what should be happening to troubleshoot them when they
don't work.

Denis McMahon