How to increase gain of BT line

Is this something that an ISP needs to request BT to do or is it something
that the customer does by reporting a fault on BT's 151 number?

A customer has a long-standing problem with broadband (two different routers
register unmeasurably weak signal (60 dB attenuation) and the line also has
intermittent problems for sending/receiving faxes, so the analogue
capabilities of the line are suspect. Plugging a phone into this line and
then the customer's house phone line, I can hear a very clear difference in
the quality of the dialling tone: the broadband/fax line is mushy whereas
the phone line is crystal clear.

Apparently one of the customer's neighbours had extensive problems with
broadband and "needed to get BT to turn the volume up a bit".

Sadly, Wanadoo are excelling themselves with negative levels of customer
service. I reported the problem back in June and said that even though BT's
line tests at the exchange were coming back clear, there really *was* a
problem and a BT broadband engineer needed to call to investigate. But BT
never turned up. I reported it again last Friday (*)after the customer told
me that there was still a problem. Sadly the Indian woman that I spoke to
never booked BT to call, even though she told me that she'd made a firm
booking for them to come on Monday; when I phoned on Tuesday, they said
there was no trace of that call on their database. However they would not
progress the call any further because I was not the customer - they wouldn't
even talk to his wife to get their authentication questions answered. Little
jobsworths :-(

Why can't computer support companies employ staff who can understand
English: I had no problem understanding the Indian woman but I suspect she
didn't appreciate what I was requesting her to do. People may slag off
PlusNet but at least their staff are English and actually understand the
problems that are being reported to them.




(*) After a gap of 3 months - when I didn't hear from him I assumed that
everything had been sorted out...

Martin Underwood wrote:
> Is this something that an ISP needs to request BT to do or is it
> something that the customer does by reporting a fault on BT's 151
> number?
> A customer has a long-standing problem with broadband (two different
> routers register unmeasurably weak signal (60 dB attenuation) and the
> line also has intermittent problems for sending/receiving faxes, so
> the analogue capabilities of the line are suspect. Plugging a phone
> into this line and then the customer's house phone line, I can hear a
> very clear difference in the quality of the dialling tone: the
> broadband/fax line is mushy whereas the phone line is crystal clear.
>
> Apparently one of the customer's neighbours had extensive problems
> with broadband and "needed to get BT to turn the volume up a bit".
>
> Sadly, Wanadoo are excelling themselves with negative levels of
> customer service. I reported the problem back in June and said that
> even though BT's line tests at the exchange were coming back clear,
> there really *was* a problem and a BT broadband engineer needed to
> call to investigate. But BT never turned up. I reported it again last
> Friday (*)after the customer told me that there was still a problem.
> Sadly the Indian woman that I spoke to never booked BT to call, even
> though she told me that she'd made a firm booking for them to come on
> Monday; when I phoned on Tuesday, they said there was no trace of
> that call on their database. However they would not progress the call
> any further because I was not the customer - they wouldn't even talk
> to his wife to get their authentication questions answered. Little
> jobsworths :-(

Well firstly how can they determne whether it's the real user or just
some malicious prankster without the password/security check

Secondly BT does not turn up the gain, in ADSL terms. They may do so if
specifically requested for the analogue/audio but doing this could very
well cause even more problems on the ADSL side (same size ADSL signal,
more/larger Analogue signal= lower SNR) so the customers neighbour is
either talking out of their nether regions or have got what actually
happened completely wrapped around their head.

What BT may do, if it is at all possible, is swap the actually cables
between your customer & the exchange in order to improve the ADSL signal
(by reducing the attenuation caused by the distance it is travelling),
but as for physically turning up the signal at the exchange end, fraid
not. BT is already getting cases of the data noise breaking thru onto
other lines without making the situation worse..

Oh & if you report it direct to BT you are almost certainly raising a
£60 visit charge by doing so. The visit has to be arranged by the ISP,
in this case Wannado.

On Wed, 12 Oct 2005 21:54:31 +0100, "Martin Underwood" <a@b> wrote:

>Is this something that an ISP needs to request BT to do or is it something
>that the customer does by reporting a fault on BT's 151 number?

if you can't hear the phone then ask 151 to fiddle with the gain.

>A customer has a long-standing problem with broadband (two different routers
>register unmeasurably weak signal (60 dB attenuation) and the line also has
>intermittent problems for sending/receiving faxes, so the analogue
>capabilities of the line are suspect. Plugging a phone into this line and
>then the customer's house phone line, I can hear a very clear difference in
>the quality of the dialling tone: the broadband/fax line is mushy whereas
>the phone line is crystal clear.

what is the SNR/noise margin ? 60 dB is the limit of a 1M service and
not an "unmeasurably weak signal" by any means.

If the broadband is intermittent get the ISP to send out a BT ADSL
engineer.

>Apparently one of the customer's neighbours had extensive problems with
>broadband and "needed to get BT to turn the volume up a bit".

urban legend.

Phil
--
Tiscali - dialup speeds at Broadband prices, see
http://bbs.adslguide.org.uk/postlist...&Board=tiscali

AOL - the unlimited ISP of choice for heavy downloaders.

Phil Thompson wrote in
(E-Mail Removed):

> On Wed, 12 Oct 2005 21:54:31 +0100, "Martin Underwood" <a@b> wrote:
>
>> Is this something that an ISP needs to request BT to do or is it
>> something that the customer does by reporting a fault on BT's 151
>> number?
>
> if you can't hear the phone then ask 151 to fiddle with the gain.
>
>> A customer has a long-standing problem with broadband (two different
>> routers register unmeasurably weak signal (60 dB attenuation) and
>> the line also has intermittent problems for sending/receiving faxes,
>> so the analogue capabilities of the line are suspect. Plugging a
>> phone into this line and then the customer's house phone line, I can
>> hear a very clear difference in the quality of the dialling tone:
>> the broadband/fax line is mushy whereas the phone line is crystal
>> clear.
>
> what is the SNR/noise margin ? 60 dB is the limit of a 1M service and
> not an "unmeasurably weak signal" by any means.

Ah. One router (Dlink G604T) reports attenuation of 60 dB and noise margin
of 20/0 (up/down), no matter whether or not the ADSL line is plugged into
the wall socket. I assumed 60 must be the router's way of reporting
"unmeasurably low". The other router that I've tried (Netgear DG834G)
displays blank values for attenuation and noise margin when connected to the
customer's line (and healthy 6 dB attenuation and 30 dB noise margin when
connected to my line).


> If the broadband is intermittent get the ISP to send out a BT ADSL
> engineer.

It's not intermittent. It's a permanent failure ever since ADSL was ordered
on the line back in May :-( At that time, the ISP got BT to do line checks
(from the exchange?) which came back "no fault found".

I've examined the socket and there is only one cable coming into it, so
there isn't other wiring in the house connected to this socket: it's used
only as a fax line. The socket is an all-in-one type (no removable
half-plate with test socket inside) so I can't try the router in the test
socket. I've tried two different ADSL cables, two different microfilters and
(using a dial-up modem cable to get a BT <-> RJ11 connection) no microfilter
at all.

>> Apparently one of the customer's neighbours had extensive problems
>> with broadband and "needed to get BT to turn the volume up a bit".
>
> urban legend.

I'm sure I've seen numerous references in this and other groups to BT
increasing the gain on a line to get ADSL working. I must have
misunderstood.

Kraftee wrote in
434d8274$0$73611$(E-Mail Removed):

> Martin Underwood wrote:
>> Is this something that an ISP needs to request BT to do or is it
>> something that the customer does by reporting a fault on BT's 151
>> number?
>> A customer has a long-standing problem with broadband (two different
>> routers register unmeasurably weak signal (60 dB attenuation) and the
>> line also has intermittent problems for sending/receiving faxes, so
>> the analogue capabilities of the line are suspect. Plugging a phone
>> into this line and then the customer's house phone line, I can hear a
>> very clear difference in the quality of the dialling tone: the
>> broadband/fax line is mushy whereas the phone line is crystal clear.
>
> Well firstly how can they determine whether it's the real user or just
> some malicious prankster without the password/security check

The problem was that they weren't even prepared to talk to me or the wife to
ask those authentication questions. I would expect them to refuse to talk to
me until I'd answered those questions correctly, but not to refuse even to
ask the questions.

> Secondly BT does not turn up the gain, in ADSL terms. They may do so
> if specifically requested for the analogue/audio but doing this could
> very well cause even more problems on the ADSL side (same size ADSL
> signal, more/larger Analogue signal= lower SNR) so the customers
> neighbour is either talking out of their nether regions or have got
> what actually happened completely wrapped around their head.

I'm sure I've seen references in this group to ADSL problems being fixed by
increasing line gain - or by increasing the gain of the ADSL carrier
independently of the analogue gain.

> What BT may do, if it is at all possible, is swap the actually cables
> between your customer & the exchange in order to improve the ADSL
> signal (by reducing the attenuation caused by the distance it is
> travelling), but as for physically turning up the signal at the
> exchange end, fraid not. BT is already getting cases of the data
> noise breaking thru onto other lines without making the situation
> worse..
> Oh & if you report it direct to BT you are almost certainly raising a
> £60 visit charge by doing so. The visit has to be arranged by the
> ISP, in this case Wannado.

As I feared. OK. I'll keep pushing Wanadoo. But when they say that they've
booked a call with BT and then I later find that there's no trace of them
doing so or even of my phone call to them, I begin to lose confidence.

I've just heard from the customer that Wandoo told him that on one previous
occasion when BT were supposed to come to investigate, they (BT) said that
as their remote tests had passed, there was no point in them coming to the
house - or that if they did, it would be chargable. This sounds odd: can the
remote tests (from the exchange?) diagnose all problems: does a pass in the
remote tests *guarantee* that the signal at the BT master socket in the
house will be OK?

The fact that the neighbour also had problems getting ADSL to work tends to
suggest wiring problems to that street; apparently that neighbour was told
that he was a long way from the exchange at the limit of usability. However
a check on BT's site says: "Our initial test on your line indicates that you
may be able to have Broadband from BT with speeds up to 512Kb, which is up
to 10 times faster than dial-up. At the moment, your telephone line is
unable to support our 2Mb speed broadband package. Also, due to the length
of your line, an engineer visit may be required to set up your broadband
service." I'm sure when I ordered broadband on the line, back in May, the
line checker said that the line was OK up to 2 Mbps.

On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 08:25:06 +0100, "Martin Underwood" <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:


>The other router that I've tried (Netgear DG834G)
>displays blank values for attenuation and noise margin when connected to the
>customer's line (and healthy 6 dB attenuation and 30 dB noise margin when
>connected to my line).

it can only get values if its in synch.

>> If the broadband is intermittent get the ISP to send out a BT ADSL
>> engineer.
>
>It's not intermittent. It's a permanent failure ever since ADSL was ordered
>on the line back in May :-( At that time, the ISP got BT to do line checks
>(from the exchange?) which came back "no fault found".

these "line checks" are another urnban legend, they can run a copper
circuit test remotely which is essentially a voice test, but people
are usually aware of the voice working or not.

It would not reveal (for example) if the line had not been physically
connected to the ADSL equipment in the exchange. Hence it needs a BT
engineer to attend and work through the system end to end. ISPs are
crap at getting BT out.

>I'm sure I've seen numerous references in this and other groups to BT
>increasing the gain on a line to get ADSL working. I must have
>misunderstood.

legends are like that, oft repeated but seldom true.

Phil
--
Tiscali - dialup speeds at Broadband prices, see
http://bbs.adslguide.org.uk/postlist...&Board=tiscali

AOL - the unlimited ISP of choice for heavy downloaders.

"Martin Underwood" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:434e1452$1$15066$(E-Mail Removed)...
> Kraftee wrote in
> 434d8274$0$73611$(E-Mail Removed):
>
>> Martin Underwood wrote:
>
> I've just heard from the customer that Wandoo told him that on one
> previous occasion when BT were supposed to come to investigate, they (BT)
> said that as their remote tests had passed, there was no point in them
> coming to the house - or that if they did, it would be chargable. This
> sounds odd: can the remote tests (from the exchange?) diagnose all
> problems: does a pass in the remote tests *guarantee* that the signal at
> the BT master socket in the house will be OK?
>

In my experience no. Last year I was unable to make telephone or achieve a
broadband connection consistently. Phoned up BT (on my mobile) who said
their remote line tests indicated there was not a problem with my line and
it must be my equipment. They said they would come out but would charge me
if the fault was with my equipment. I had already tested my equipment on
another line and it was working okay. When the engineer came out he found
the wire from the pole across the street was broken and intermittently
making/breaking contact as it swayed in the wind - the remote line tests
didn't pick this up. It was fixed for free.

>
>>> Apparently one of the customer's neighbours had extensive problems
>>> with broadband and "needed to get BT to turn the volume up a bit".
>>
>> urban legend.
>
> I'm sure I've seen numerous references in this and other groups to BT
> increasing the gain on a line to get ADSL working. I must have
> misunderstood.


Yes I believe I`ve also seen references to this but in answer to problems
with dial up modems.

Martin Underwood wrote:
>
>> Secondly BT does not turn up the gain, in ADSL terms. They may do so
>> if specifically requested for the analogue/audio but doing this could
>> very well cause even more problems on the ADSL side (same size ADSL
>> signal, more/larger Analogue signal= lower SNR) so the customers
>> neighbour is either talking out of their nether regions or have got
>> what actually happened completely wrapped around their head.
>
> I'm sure I've seen references in this group to ADSL problems being
> fixed by increasing line gain - or by increasing the gain of the ADSL
> carrier independently of the analogue gain.

Urban myth, the only way of increasing the ADSL signal is to improve the
path between the end user & the exchange. This sometimes can be done
giving impressive improvements, but only sometimes. It will depend on
the network present at the time
>

> As I feared. OK. I'll keep pushing Wanadoo. But when they say that
> they've booked a call with BT and then I later find that there's no
> trace of them doing so or even of my phone call to them, I begin to
> lose confidence.

Yes I know how you feel on that one, as I've said before I've had to
visit one end user who had been waiting 14 months & when I got there I
failed their line
>
> I've just heard from the customer that Wandoo told him that on one
> previous occasion when BT were supposed to come to investigate, they
> (BT) said that as their remote tests had passed, there was no point
> in them coming to the house - or that if they did, it would be
> chargable. This sounds odd: can the remote tests (from the exchange?)
> diagnose all problems: does a pass in the remote tests *guarantee*
> that the signal at the BT master socket in the house will be OK?

No what it means is that BT have been asked to do what is called a
Presto test, checks whether the ADSL is working correctly in the
exchange but no more. Depending on how the ISP wants to take the
results of such a test will make the difference between a home visit or
not (the ISP has to pay for such a visit)
>
> The fact that the neighbour also had problems getting ADSL to work
> tends to suggest wiring problems to that street; apparently that
> neighbour was told that he was a long way from the exchange at the
> limit of usability. However a check on BT's site says: "Our initial
> test on your line indicates that you may be able to have Broadband
> from BT with speeds up to 512Kb, which is up to 10 times faster than
> dial-up. At the moment, your telephone line is unable to support our
> 2Mb speed broadband package. Also, due to the length of your line, an
> engineer visit may be required to set up your broadband service." I'm
> sure when I ordered broadband on the line, back in May, the line
> checker said that the line was OK up to 2 Mbps.

The on-line checker is infamous for being inaccurate, as has been posted
many times before. The only way to _KNOW_ is to get an ADSL engineer to
visit site & test the line, which is the problem for your contacts as
their ISP appears to be reticent about doing so.