http://Blackbox - simple but...

Hi all,

I hope that some of you have ideas regarding this issue.

I would like to add a device to my local network (lets call it "Blackbox").
I have the possibility to edit the software in the Blackbox.

I have one "simple" demand to Blackbox:
It must always be possible to enter http://Blackbox in a browser on every PC
in the local network and then the internal webpage of the Blackbox must be
loaded in that browser.

I have one "simple" demand to every PC on my local network:
No setup procedure necessary. (eg. ip/name association, DNS IP)

I look forward to read if any of you have ideas to solve this.

Best regards
Flemming

On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 09:52:52 +0200, "Flemming L. Baerentsen"
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>Hi all,
>
>I hope that some of you have ideas regarding this issue.
>
>I would like to add a device to my local network (lets call it "Blackbox").
>I have the possibility to edit the software in the Blackbox.
>
>I have one "simple" demand to Blackbox:
>It must always be possible to enter http://Blackbox in a browser on every PC
>in the local network and then the internal webpage of the Blackbox must be
>loaded in that browser.
>
>I have one "simple" demand to every PC on my local network:
>No setup procedure necessary. (eg. ip/name association, DNS IP)
>
>I look forward to read if any of you have ideas to solve this.

1. give the device the name "Blackbox"
if it's a PC the set the computer name to Blackbox
2. run a webserver on that device
try Apache


--
Regards, Paul Herber, Sandrila Ltd. http://www.sandrila.co.uk/

Hi Paul,

Thank you for answering.

I tried you proposal, though with a windows IIS server.
1. My computer name was set to Blackbox and the IIS server was started.
2. I started a explore browser on Blackbox and entered http://Blackbox, but
the page would not load.
3. In the browser I wrote http://192.168.1.30 and a login screen was
displayed. (192.168.1.30 is the IP of Blackbox)

Have I done something wrong or?

Regards
Flemming

"Paul Herber" <(E-Mail Removed)> skrev i en meddelelse
news:(E-Mail Removed) ell.net...
> On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 09:52:52 +0200, "Flemming L. Baerentsen"
> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>>Hi all,
>>
>>I hope that some of you have ideas regarding this issue.
>>
>>I would like to add a device to my local network (lets call it
>>"Blackbox").
>>I have the possibility to edit the software in the Blackbox.
>>
>>I have one "simple" demand to Blackbox:
>>It must always be possible to enter http://Blackbox in a browser on every
>>PC
>>in the local network and then the internal webpage of the Blackbox must be
>>loaded in that browser.
>>
>>I have one "simple" demand to every PC on my local network:
>>No setup procedure necessary. (eg. ip/name association, DNS IP)
>>
>>I look forward to read if any of you have ideas to solve this.
>
> 1. give the device the name "Blackbox"
> if it's a PC the set the computer name to Blackbox
> 2. run a webserver on that device
> try Apache
>
>
> --
> Regards, Paul Herber, Sandrila Ltd. http://www.sandrila.co.uk/

Flemming L. Baerentsen wrote:
> Hi Paul,
>
> Thank you for answering.
>
> I tried you proposal, though with a windows IIS server.
> 1. My computer name was set to Blackbox and the IIS server was started.
> 2. I started a explore browser on Blackbox and entered http://Blackbox, but
> the page would not load.
> 3. In the browser I wrote http://192.168.1.30 and a login screen was
> displayed. (192.168.1.30 is the IP of Blackbox)
>
> Have I done something wrong or?

.... just forgotten to add the 'blackbox' name to the local dns or hosts
file.

--
Mike Scott (unet <at> scottsonline.org.uk)
Harlow Essex England

"Mike Scott" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:6tcci.3956$(E-Mail Removed)...
> Flemming L. Baerentsen wrote:
>> Hi Paul,
>>
>> Thank you for answering.
>>
>> I tried you proposal, though with a windows IIS server.
>> 1. My computer name was set to Blackbox and the IIS server was started.
>> 2. I started a explore browser on Blackbox and entered http://Blackbox,
>> but the page would not load.
>> 3. In the browser I wrote http://192.168.1.30 and a login screen was
>> displayed. (192.168.1.30 is the IP of Blackbox)
>>
>> Have I done something wrong or?
>
> ... just forgotten to add the 'blackbox' name to the local dns or hosts
> file.

I think one of his stipulations was that he didn't want to have to
reconfigure the PCs that would access Blackbox - eg by adding lines to his
hosts file.

However he is seeing a name-to-IP translation problem which could be worked
around by entries in each of the hosts files. Ideally his router should be
maintaining a DNS list that the PCs could query, but in my experience this
is very hit-and-miss: most of the time it works fine (on my network with
several XP PCs and a W98 PC I've never had a problem) but sometimes you can
tear your hair out trying to get it to work.

I had a problem with a PC that had a Belkin PCI card on a network with a
Netgear DG834N router and various laptops with built-in wireless adaptors. I
needed the laptops to access shared resourceds on the PC with the Belkin
card, and usually this failed with the dreaded Error 53 (name not found).
"net view \\192.168.1.2" or "net use r: \\192.168.1.2\resource" worked fine.
I was advised by my local PC shop that they have had great problems with
this router not working with older Wireless G cards, despite the
manufacturer's spec say it is backward compatible. Name resolution had
failed: I couldn't even ping the Belkin PC by name, only by IP address.
Also, that PC didn't show up in the router's DHCP list, even as an IP
address with unknown host name, whereas all the laptops showed up. The
Belkin PC had no problems accessing other PCs - it was a one-way problem.

Replacement of router with a DG834PN and the Belkin with a Netgear WG111PN
worked perfectly. I chose the USB device because the signal from the router
is weak and a USB device can be positioned high up on the end of a lead
instead of being on the floor in the shadow of the PC case.

I'm not sure whether it was the change of router or the change of netork
adaptor that solved the problem: if I'd not been pushed to solve the problem
for the customer as fast as possible I'd have experimented with old card and
new router, and new card and old router.

Hi,

Mortimer you are right that I did not want to manipulate local DNS or host
files.

The basic idea is to build a "Blackbox" aiming at the consumer market. The
consumer can add Blackbox to his/her local network and get access to it by
typing "Blackbox" in a webbrowser. The consumer can have no network
knowledge.

So. Can the Blackbox eg. have a built-in DNS server at a "default-DNS" port,
which the local PC's always will find? Or something similar?


"Mortimer" <(E-Mail Removed)> skrev i en meddelelse
news:467164f2$0$8711$(E-Mail Removed)...
>
> "Mike Scott" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:6tcci.3956$(E-Mail Removed)...
>> Flemming L. Baerentsen wrote:
>>> Hi Paul,
>>>
>>> Thank you for answering.
>>>
>>> I tried you proposal, though with a windows IIS server.
>>> 1. My computer name was set to Blackbox and the IIS server was started.
>>> 2. I started a explore browser on Blackbox and entered http://Blackbox,
>>> but the page would not load.
>>> 3. In the browser I wrote http://192.168.1.30 and a login screen was
>>> displayed. (192.168.1.30 is the IP of Blackbox)
>>>
>>> Have I done something wrong or?
>>
>> ... just forgotten to add the 'blackbox' name to the local dns or hosts
>> file.
>
> I think one of his stipulations was that he didn't want to have to
> reconfigure the PCs that would access Blackbox - eg by adding lines to his
> hosts file.
>
> However he is seeing a name-to-IP translation problem which could be
> worked around by entries in each of the hosts files. Ideally his router
> should be maintaining a DNS list that the PCs could query, but in my
> experience this is very hit-and-miss: most of the time it works fine (on
> my network with several XP PCs and a W98 PC I've never had a problem) but
> sometimes you can tear your hair out trying to get it to work.
>
> I had a problem with a PC that had a Belkin PCI card on a network with a
> Netgear DG834N router and various laptops with built-in wireless adaptors.
> I needed the laptops to access shared resourceds on the PC with the Belkin
> card, and usually this failed with the dreaded Error 53 (name not found).
> "net view \\192.168.1.2" or "net use r: \\192.168.1.2\resource" worked
> fine. I was advised by my local PC shop that they have had great problems
> with this router not working with older Wireless G cards, despite the
> manufacturer's spec say it is backward compatible. Name resolution had
> failed: I couldn't even ping the Belkin PC by name, only by IP address.
> Also, that PC didn't show up in the router's DHCP list, even as an IP
> address with unknown host name, whereas all the laptops showed up. The
> Belkin PC had no problems accessing other PCs - it was a one-way problem.
>
> Replacement of router with a DG834PN and the Belkin with a Netgear WG111PN
> worked perfectly. I chose the USB device because the signal from the
> router is weak and a USB device can be positioned high up on the end of a
> lead instead of being on the floor in the shadow of the PC case.
>
> I'm not sure whether it was the change of router or the change of netork
> adaptor that solved the problem: if I'd not been pushed to solve the
> problem for the customer as fast as possible I'd have experimented with
> old card and new router, and new card and old router.
>

"Flemming L. Baerentsen" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:46762eeb$0$867$(E-Mail Removed). ..
> Hi,
>
> Mortimer you are right that I did not want to manipulate local DNS or host
> files.
>
> The basic idea is to build a "Blackbox" aiming at the consumer market. The
> consumer can add Blackbox to his/her local network and get access to it by
> typing "Blackbox" in a webbrowser. The consumer can have no network
> knowledge.
>
> So. Can the Blackbox eg. have a built-in DNS server at a "default-DNS"
> port, which the local PC's always will find? Or something similar?
>

You *could* implement a DNS server in the blackbox, but on it's own that's
only any use if the PC's have it specified as the DNS server, so you're back
to square 1. It would then need to act as a forwarder anyway if they still
want internet names to resolve.

For people that use a DHCP server (either computer based or router based)
you'd want the blackbox set to be a dhcp client (ie. it is automatically
configured by the dhcp) - if all is configured ok, then the name of it will
be registered into DNS. Windows DHCP can register names into DNS on behalf
of clients that can't do it themselves, routers keep their own internal
tables (I guess?) but as others pointed out, this isn't 100% reliable.

For networks where DHCP isn't used you're screwed anyway. Assuming we're
talking about Windows PC's then if the blackbox can also implement Netbios,
and the PC's don't have this disabled, it will be found by network
broadcasts, but if it's just plan old TCP/IP then I don't think this
works...

Basically, it comes down to the point that for http://blackbox to work, the
PC's need *some* way of translating that to an IP address. And without
making assumptions, that leaves you with DNS. If the users have got their
DNS set to their ISP's DNS server, then it will never work, and you're back
to editing hosts files etc.

James

Hi James,

Thank you for your respond.

I have also considered adding both DNS and DHCP server in Blackbox. But then
again, what if the network consist of an existing DNS and DHCP server. Then
it again will be back to square one.

Thank you for the information regarding NetBios.

Maybe there just is not any automatic "network aware" functionality
available or?

What about on MAC level. Does anyone know if this could be the place to
search?

Regards
Flemming

"JamesB" <(E-Mail Removed)> skrev i en meddelelse
news:4676448a$0$27858$(E-Mail Removed)...
>
> "Flemming L. Baerentsen" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:46762eeb$0$867$(E-Mail Removed). ..
>> Hi,
>>
>> Mortimer you are right that I did not want to manipulate local DNS or
>> host files.
>>
>> The basic idea is to build a "Blackbox" aiming at the consumer market.
>> The consumer can add Blackbox to his/her local network and get access to
>> it by typing "Blackbox" in a webbrowser. The consumer can have no network
>> knowledge.
>>
>> So. Can the Blackbox eg. have a built-in DNS server at a "default-DNS"
>> port, which the local PC's always will find? Or something similar?
>>
>
> You *could* implement a DNS server in the blackbox, but on it's own that's
> only any use if the PC's have it specified as the DNS server, so you're
> back to square 1. It would then need to act as a forwarder anyway if they
> still want internet names to resolve.
>
> For people that use a DHCP server (either computer based or router based)
> you'd want the blackbox set to be a dhcp client (ie. it is automatically
> configured by the dhcp) - if all is configured ok, then the name of it
> will be registered into DNS. Windows DHCP can register names into DNS on
> behalf of clients that can't do it themselves, routers keep their own
> internal tables (I guess?) but as others pointed out, this isn't 100%
> reliable.
>
> For networks where DHCP isn't used you're screwed anyway. Assuming we're
> talking about Windows PC's then if the blackbox can also implement
> Netbios, and the PC's don't have this disabled, it will be found by
> network broadcasts, but if it's just plan old TCP/IP then I don't think
> this works...
>
> Basically, it comes down to the point that for http://blackbox to work,
> the PC's need *some* way of translating that to an IP address. And without
> making assumptions, that leaves you with DNS. If the users have got their
> DNS set to their ISP's DNS server, then it will never work, and you're
> back to editing hosts files etc.
>
> James

In message <4670f361$0$862$(E-Mail Removed)>, Flemming L.
Baerentsen <(E-Mail Removed)> writes

>I have one "simple" demand to Blackbox:
>It must always be possible to enter http://Blackbox in a browser on every PC
>in the local network and then the internal webpage of the Blackbox must be
>loaded in that browser.
>
>I have one "simple" demand to every PC on my local network:
>No setup procedure necessary. (eg. ip/name association, DNS IP)

<2p's worth>

Some of this is repeating what's already been posted, but:

If blackbox is a windows machine it should announce it's presence to the
network as it boots, so you should be able just to type in blackbox into
a windows browser and see blackbox, it certainly works here. In my very
limited experience of Linux, Suse could see Windows network devices by
name.

XP uses the NetBios Datagram service over UDP over IP. As bodge
solution, if blackbox isn't a Windows machine, I'd have thought it would
be possible just to record the broadcast announcement from a Windows
machine and have blackbox broadcast the suitably edited packet contents
every so often to make other networked devices aware of it's name.

</2p's worth>


--
bof at bof dot me dot uk

"Flemming L. Baerentsen" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:4677b2dc$0$844$(E-Mail Removed). ..
> Hi James,
>
> Thank you for your respond.
>
> I have also considered adding both DNS and DHCP server in Blackbox. But
> then again, what if the network consist of an existing DNS and DHCP
> server. Then it again will be back to square one.
>
> Thank you for the information regarding NetBios.
>
> Maybe there just is not any automatic "network aware" functionality
> available or?
>
> What about on MAC level. Does anyone know if this could be the place to
> search?
>

I don't think operating systems do lookups based on MAC Address in any way.
You can see the current MAC > IP relation using the ARP command, but I think
this is built on the fly from devices that are connected to, and not the
other way around.
You can do scans from the PC end to find a device that responds in a certain
way, but again, you are looking at doing "something" on the PC's.

I don't think there is any way of plugging a device into a network that will
respond to a standard lookup without it:
a) being in DNS
b) responding to broadcasts (assuming the PC's are configured to do so)
c) responding to some sort of custom software on the machines

James