Homeplug to *extend* a network?

On Tue, 04 Aug 2009 16:53:55 +0100
bert <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> Rob Morley wrote:
> > On Tue, 04 Aug 2009 12:00:08 +0100
> > bert <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> >
> >> I
> >> think Homeplugs are a superb bit of kit and I can even use my
> >> laptop in the garden through an old garden cable reel. Plus they
> >> are far more secure than wireless.
> >
> > Why do you think they're more secure? Both WiFi and Homeplug use
> > 128-bit AES encryption, which is significantly more of a barrier to
> > exploitation than physical access. Homeplug can often be heard some
> > distance from the house, so it probably wouldn't be too difficult to
> > listen in anyway with a directional antenna and an RF amplifier.
> >
> How many people have directional antenna compared to wifi enabled
> gadgets?

More relevant is how many people go wardriving with a directional
antenna, as they're the sort of people you should be worrying about
when it comes to security. Maybe Homeplug users are more likely to
think they don't need to change the default encryption key, because
they think the signal won't escape the building.

In message <h5c62l$c9q$(E-Mail Removed)>, Dave J. <(E-Mail Removed)>
writes
>In MsgID<(E-Mail Removed)> on Sun, 2 Aug 2009
>23:05:39 +0100, in uk.comp.home-networking, 'Clint Sharp' wrote:
>
>>As long as the homeplugs have that CE approval (and it's traceable, not
>>forged) then you can wave goodbye to shortwave listening.
>
>You think that's a problem?
Well, only where some muppet has homeplugs installed. I'm fairly
fortunate so far..

>
>I assume you came across the furore about the data-over-mains-network
>system that was being proposed a couple of years back?
Oh yes, street lights radiating all sorts of mush, lovely.
>
>I've so far noticed no serious increase in interference from the homeplug
>bodge, and that's on the outskirts of a city. That's not to say that a
>neighbour's bright idea couldn't cripple my listening overnight but *so
>far* I've been lucky.
Me too..
>
>Heh OT here, but you might recognise my 'pride and joy' - a 60yr old CR100
>ex-navy boatanchor. Works surprisingly well. Could do with a bolt-on FM
>demod. Given it's sensitive enough to pick up yankee amateurs I assume I'd
>notice any serious EM pollution. Goes from about 60khz (yes, 60x10^3) up
>to 30 meg.
Never been a boat anchor fan I'm afraid but I do occasionally dig out
the R1000 and string a length of wire across the garden..
>
>
>Dave J.

--
Clint Sharp

In article <(E-Mail Removed)>, DC says...

> You live next door ?

You only have to live within a 500m radius.

--
Conor
www.notebooks-r-us.co.uk
I only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow isn't
looking good either. - Scott Adams

In article <wM-dnY_-(E-Mail Removed)>,
Mortimer says...

> Have Ofcom or amateur radio enthusiasts done any tests to see how bad
> non-Comtrend devices are?
>
Yes. One of the UKQRM youtube vidoes shows him demonstrating Comtrend
but also stating he was picking up noise from an Advent one, although
less intrusive.

> I want to know whether to stop recommending them altogether for my customers
> or just to make sure they don't use Comtrend.

I think its a case of "making them aware" of the problem then they
can't complain if they decide to go with them and Ofcom pay a visit.
Many people will be able to use them without affecting anyone else due
to the fact nobody within the signal area uses HF as your former lack
of awareness of the issue demonstrates.

However, a proof of concept of someone managing to get onto a network
that uses these things has come to light. The encryption key has been
cracked and the units can't differentiate from the RF signal produced
by another unit plugged into the mains or a RF signal picked up from an
external source by the mains cable.

--
Conor
www.notebooks-r-us.co.uk
I only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow isn't
looking good either. - Scott Adams

On Thu, 06 Aug 2009 12:33:29 +0100
bert <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> I'd be interested to read about it so can you point to cases of
> Homeplug/Powerline users being hacked in the manner you describe?

I don't have anything bookmarked and Google isn't helping. Conor said
he'd seen something about the proof of concept, which is AFAIK all it
is ATM.

In article <TFAem.137632$(E-Mail Removed)2>, bert says...
>
> Rob Morley wrote:
> > On Thu, 06 Aug 2009 12:33:29 +0100
> > bert <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> >
> >> I'd be interested to read about it so can you point to cases of
> >> Homeplug/Powerline users being hacked in the manner you describe?
> >
> > I don't have anything bookmarked and Google isn't helping. Conor said
> > he'd seen something about the proof of concept, which is AFAIK all it
> > is ATM.
> >
>
> Thanks for that Rob

Yes, it's proof of concept basically due to the transmitter power
levels required.

--
Conor
www.notebooks-r-us.co.uk
I only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow isn't
looking good either. - Scott Adams

On Thu, 6 Aug 2009 14:24:12 +0100
Conor <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> In article <TFAem.137632$(E-Mail Removed)2>, bert says...
> >
> > Rob Morley wrote:
> > > On Thu, 06 Aug 2009 12:33:29 +0100
> > > bert <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> > >
> > >> I'd be interested to read about it so can you point to cases of
> > >> Homeplug/Powerline users being hacked in the manner you describe?
> > >
> > > I don't have anything bookmarked and Google isn't helping. Conor
> > > said he'd seen something about the proof of concept, which is
> > > AFAIK all it is ATM.
> > >
> >
> > Thanks for that Rob
>
> Yes, it's proof of concept basically due to the transmitter power
> levels required.
>
I forgot you were talking about actually hacking the network - I was
talking about eavesdropping, which should be easier.

In article <20090806164143.66195f75@bluemoon>, Rob Morley says...
>
> On Thu, 6 Aug 2009 14:24:12 +0100
> Conor <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
> > In article <TFAem.137632$(E-Mail Removed)2>, bert says...
> > >
> > > Rob Morley wrote:
> > > > On Thu, 06 Aug 2009 12:33:29 +0100
> > > > bert <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> I'd be interested to read about it so can you point to cases of
> > > >> Homeplug/Powerline users being hacked in the manner you describe?
> > > >
> > > > I don't have anything bookmarked and Google isn't helping. Conor
> > > > said he'd seen something about the proof of concept, which is
> > > > AFAIK all it is ATM.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Thanks for that Rob
> >
> > Yes, it's proof of concept basically due to the transmitter power
> > levels required.
> >
> I forgot you were talking about actually hacking the network - I was
> talking about eavesdropping, which should be easier.

Ah, yes. Effectively they can be received up to 500m but it depends on
what frequency you're listening on as they're stronger on some than
others.

--
Conor
www.notebooks-r-us.co.uk
I only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow isn't
looking good either. - Scott Adams

In article <(E-Mail Removed)>, DC says...

> >You only have to live within a 500m radius.
>
> That's huge !

Indeed. Well my complaint has been solved. Thought something had
happened when the noise disappeared just before the weekend but this
afternoon, the Ofcom Field Engineer dealing with my complaint phoned me
to ask if I'd noticed a change.

It would appear that BT supplied different PLT adapters that DON'T
interfere with HF so they do have them but are reluctant to issue them
however are more than happy to punt gear in the full knowledge that its
operating illegally.

--
Conor
www.notebooks-r-us.co.uk
I only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow isn't
looking good either. - Scott Adams

In article <42f40658-8e06-40f5-9be4-ad17d743a509
@b15g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>, Ric Harris says...

> Conor, there's a long discussion on Slashdot today regarding exactly
> this issue you might be interested in. The S/N is pretty low, as you
> might expect on /., but it might be of interest.
> Mine are getting swapped out for physical GigE this weekend.
>
Thanks. I'll get round to there in a little bit. Its on my list of
daily site visits.



--
Conor
www.notebooks-r-us.co.uk
I only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow isn't
looking good either. - Scott Adams