Help setting up 2 outdoor APs that have a range of about 1mile

Hello, I'm new to this group, it seems like here I can find the answer
to my question, a lot of people with lots of knowledge. At work I have
to setup 2 outdoor APs. The first one I already set it up like this but
it seems the setup is not optimal using WDS because it looses signal
speed each time the signal is repeated.

The purpose of both setups is having internet access for at least 10
laptops in a half a mile radius.

Internet ---- WRT54G )) (( WRT54GS )) (( WRT54GS )) (( WVC54G

This setup is around 200 feet from one end to the other, the setup is
almost all outdoor, the second router is in a hangar with big doors
open, and the third router is in a trailer.

It works but it seems that it is not optimal as it is, using the WDS,
when I use the camera it hogs the internet conecction.

I was thinking of something like this.

Internet ---- WRT54G --- Amplifier ---- Antenna )) (range of 500 feet)
(( Laptops, WVC54G, etc.

The second setup is a mobile setup. We go places on a convoy of 6
trucks and we want to have internet access in all 6 trucks. One of the
trailers pulled by one of the trucks will have internet and we want to
broadcast the signal in that trailer, would that same setup work? That
one has to have a range of at least 1 mile. Money is not a problem as
long as it is not too much if it is feasible of course (~500$)

Thanks a lot in advance.

On 13 Feb 2006 18:35:51 -0800, (E-Mail Removed) wrote:

>Hello, I'm new to this group, it seems like here I can find the answer
>to my question, a lot of people with lots of knowledge. At work I have
>to setup 2 outdoor APs. The first one I already set it up like this but
>it seems the setup is not optimal using WDS because it looses signal
>speed each time the signal is repeated.

Yep. Figure that it cuts your maximum speed in half on each hop after
the first WDS router. For example, if your 3ea WDS repeaters each
connected at 24Mbits/sec wireless speed, the maximum thruput would be
about 12Mbits/sec. You have 2 extra hops so your maximum speed is:
12 / 2 / 2 = 3Mbits/sec.
It will probably be somewhat less than that due to collisions,
interference, and timing issues. Not very good.

>The purpose of both setups is having internet access for at least 10
>laptops in a half a mile radius.
>
>Internet ---- WRT54G )) (( WRT54GS )) (( WRT54GS )) (( WVC54G

Radius? Can't you build a spoke and hub setup where everyone connects
to a central access point? 1 mile isn't difficult if you have line of
sight and big dish antenna.

>This setup is around 200 feet from one end to the other, the setup is
>almost all outdoor, the second router is in a hangar with big doors
>open, and the third router is in a trailer.

The hangar will cause problems due to reflections and multipath. 200ft
"end to end" seems to imply 100ft radius. Is that correct? If so,
this should be easy with a single central access point. Why so mnay
repeaters?

>It works but it seems that it is not optimal as it is, using the WDS,
>when I use the camera it hogs the internet conecction.

Cameras can be bandwidth hogs depending on how they are setup. If
you're using a demand real-time feed (i.e. send JPG's as fast as the
pipe will handle), you'll use up ALL your available bandwidth.

>I was thinking of something like this.
>
>Internet ---- WRT54G --- Amplifier ---- Antenna )) (range of 500 feet)
>(( Laptops, WVC54G, etc.

Yep. That's roughly what I would do. However, lose the amplifier.
Those things only belch more signal than they can receive. You end up
with an alligator (big mouth, small ears) which only generates
interference. Put you effort into proper antennas. Put the WRT54G
very close to the antenna. If the terrain is flat, and you have line
of sight to everywhere, you can probably get away with an
omnidirectional antenna on the WRT54G. For the hangar and trailer,
some kind of dish or panel with as much gain as you can afford.

--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558 (E-Mail Removed)
# http://802.11junk.com (E-Mail Removed)
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

Thanks for the quick reply. About the distances, when I said 200 ft is
taking from one end to the other, we only have one internet outlet and
is at one of the ends of the diagrams I did. Now which antennas would
you recommend for such setup, I dont understand too well the whole deal
with the antennas.

Now that I think of, there might be an issue. I'll try to draw it the
best I can.

http://plaza.ufl.edu/xchus/Setup.jpg

There is the drawing with the current setup, the signal strength is
good all the time anywhere in the drawing. There is one thing though
sometimes we have trucks and trailers in the middle and that affects
the connection. Would also the antenna allow a better reception?

For the mobile setup that might be the case where we can assume it has
to be a 1 mile radius, becuase the convoy is not always setup in the
same order of trucks.

Also can I limit both setups to just one router and one antenna? Maybe
one amplifier if needed?

Thanks again.

(E-Mail Removed) hath wroth:

>Thanks for the quick reply. About the distances, when I said 200 ft is
>taking from one end to the other, we only have one internet outlet and
>is at one of the ends of the diagrams I did.

That's almost perfect. A fairly high gain antenna pointed in the
general direction of the users should be sufficient.

>Now which antennas would
>you recommend for such setup, I dont understand too well the whole deal
>with the antennas.

Antennas work by stealing signal from one direction, and sending it
another. Kinda like a water nozzle. In your case, an 8dBi panel or
patch antenna, at the access point end, will cover the general area,
while not sending any signal in the directions where there are no
users. The general rule of thumb is that if you can see the antenna,
you can talk to it. If you can't see it, it might work, but it won't
be reliable. Try everything you can to get line of sight between
antennas.

If the antennas are on the roof, you may need to also mount the access
point and client radios on the roof. Coax cable losses are
substantial and should be avoided.

>Now that I think of, there might be an issue. I'll try to draw it the
>best I can.
>http://plaza.ufl.edu/xchus/Setup.jpg
>
>There is the drawing with the current setup, the signal strength is
>good all the time anywhere in the drawing.

Making the right angle turn into the doorway of the hangar is going to
be a problem. RF does not like to go through metal walls. Are there
any windows that face the probable location of the access point that
an antenna in the hangar can be located?

>There is one thing though
>sometimes we have trucks and trailers in the middle and that affects
>the connection. Would also the antenna allow a better reception?

Trucks and trailers are either reflectors or obstructions to RF. Both
a determintal and should be avoided. If you want reliable operation,
try to get the antennas and radios up high where thing moving on the
ground will have little effect. At 200ft, you don't need a big tower
or elaborate mounting. Just a pipe at the roof peak with a view of
the connecting client radios, which might also be roof mounted. Doing
everything at ground level is certain to be a problem.

>For the mobile setup that might be the case where we can assume it has
>to be a 1 mile radius, becuase the convoy is not always setup in the
>same order of trucks.
>
>Also can I limit both setups to just one router and one antenna? Maybe
>one amplifier if needed?

This is really a seperate issue and should be a seperate posting.

It is possible to distribute wireless from a moving truck convoy. In
general, it's a central access point with a decent antenna. The
client radios have some type of directional (small panel) antennas
that are aimed at the central access point. The local movie company
had a similar system when they were filming locally last week (and
caused all kinds of 2.4GHz interference because they were running
maximum power). However, these systems were not intended to be used
while moving down the road as the directional antennas would not be
aligned or stable. Range will also be rather limited. My guess is
about 300ft mostly because the other trucks in between present a
serious barrier in the Fresnel Zone, obstruction, or reflection.
Methinks 1 mile would be impossible.

--
Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558