Help, I need to bridge 200 feet of wilderness

I need the cheapest system I can find that can reach 200 feet in
range from a computer inside one house to a computer inside another
house 200 feet away and foliage in-between. I'd like to avoid
hardwireing it with cat-5 due to landscaping issues and I'd like to
avoid placing electronics out in the weather because it is so damn cold
and wet here.(It gets as low as -20 Celcius in Nova Scotia) I am not
above jury-rigging stuff or modifications.

I need some tips here and perhaps one of you can help. I have a
satellite up-down system that provides some good bandwidth. I have two
buildings, one for me and one for my parents. I would like to get high
speed for both. The buildings are separated by 200 feet of trees,
foliage and a small brook. I would prefer not to run cat 5 as I
don't want to dig up the property if possible and the brook could be
a problem. One building has cement siding which might be an issue
though it is thin stuff and I have lots of windows. I have a small
wireless system already, but the range is limited, it reaches outside
the building with the drop and I can pick it up on my laptop wireless
card (centrino) There is no chance of interference with this system as
I live in the middle of nowhere.
Any suggestions of what I need to buy and the best place to buy them
would be greatly appreciated

The trees might be a problem. As far as putting the radios outside, I
don't think that's necessary. I ran some tests with my inexpensive
equipment (Netgear MR814v2 router, Zonet ZEW2501 dongle - one of which
melted yesterday to see if glass or window screens blocked the
signal. I found almost no loss of signal in going through glass or
window screens. I wasn't surprised about the glass, but I was
surprised to see that the screens didn't block the signal. So I would
just put the radios on the window sills and not worry about putting
them outside.

Bruce

On 26 Oct 2005 04:52:34 -0700, "mr. ob" <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:

>I need the cheapest system I can find that can reach 200 feet in
>range from a computer inside one house to a computer inside another
>house 200 feet away and foliage in-between. I'd like to avoid
>hardwireing it with cat-5 due to landscaping issues and I'd like to
>avoid placing electronics out in the weather because it is so damn cold
>and wet here.(It gets as low as -20 Celcius in Nova Scotia) I am not
>above jury-rigging stuff or modifications.
>
>I need some tips here and perhaps one of you can help. I have a
>satellite up-down system that provides some good bandwidth. I have two
>buildings, one for me and one for my parents. I would like to get high
>speed for both. The buildings are separated by 200 feet of trees,
>foliage and a small brook. I would prefer not to run cat 5 as I
>don't want to dig up the property if possible and the brook could be
>a problem. One building has cement siding which might be an issue
>though it is thin stuff and I have lots of windows. I have a small
>wireless system already, but the range is limited, it reaches outside
>the building with the drop and I can pick it up on my laptop wireless
>card (centrino) There is no chance of interference with this system as
>I live in the middle of nowhere.
>Any suggestions of what I need to buy and the best place to buy them
>would be greatly appreciated

Since WiFi is line of sight, much depends on how much obstruction there is.

I suggest you first try a D-Link AirPlus Xtreme G DWL-2100AP Wireless Access
Point with a D-Link ANT24-1400 14dBi Directional Panel Antenna at your house,
with the antenna aimed at the other house, and see if that's enough for a
standard wireless device to connect at the other house. If not, you could try
a similar directional antenna at the other house.

In <(E-Mail Removed) .com> on 26 Oct 2005
04:52:34 -0700, "mr. ob" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>I need the cheapest system I can find that can reach 200 feet in
>range from a computer inside one house to a computer inside another
>house 200 feet away and foliage in-between. I'd like to avoid
>hardwireing it with cat-5 due to landscaping issues and I'd like to
>avoid placing electronics out in the weather because it is so damn cold
>and wet here.(It gets as low as -20 Celcius in Nova Scotia) I am not
>above jury-rigging stuff or modifications.
>
>I need some tips here and perhaps one of you can help. I have a
>satellite up-down system that provides some good bandwidth. I have two
>buildings, one for me and one for my parents. I would like to get high
>speed for both. The buildings are separated by 200 feet of trees,
>foliage and a small brook. I would prefer not to run cat 5 as I
>don't want to dig up the property if possible and the brook could be
>a problem. One building has cement siding which might be an issue
>though it is thin stuff and I have lots of windows. I have a small
>wireless system already, but the range is limited, it reaches outside
>the building with the drop and I can pick it up on my laptop wireless
>card (centrino) There is no chance of interference with this system as
>I live in the middle of nowhere.
>Any suggestions of what I need to buy and the best place to buy them
>would be greatly appreciated

--
Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>

On 26 Oct 2005 04:52:34 -0700, "mr. ob" <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:

>I need the cheapest system I can find that can reach 200 feet in
>range from a computer inside one house to a computer inside another
>house 200 feet away and foliage in-between.

The cheapest? Run CAT5 cable. Plop it on the ground. Should work
until the citters start chewing on it.

>I'd like to avoid
>hardwireing it with cat-5 due to landscaping issues and I'd like to
>avoid placing electronics out in the weather because it is so damn cold
>and wet here.(It gets as low as -20 Celcius in Nova Scotia) I am not
>above jury-rigging stuff or modifications.

Is it too cold to do trenching or horizontal drilling? Waterproof and
gel filled CAT5 is about $140/1000ft.

>I need some tips here and perhaps one of you can help. I have a
>satellite up-down system that provides some good bandwidth. I have two
>buildings, one for me and one for my parents. I would like to get high
>speed for both. The buildings are separated by 200 feet of trees,
>foliage and a small brook.

Trees are fatal. I live in a redwood forest with a rather dense
overgrown wall of trees in all directions. Propogation varys from
difficult to impossible. The best solution for propogation issues is
a chain saw.

>I would prefer not to run cat 5 as I
>don't want to dig up the property if possible and the brook could be
>a problem.

Run conduit under the brook. Schedule 80 is very strong and
waterproof.

>One building has cement siding which might be an issue
>though it is thin stuff and I have lots of windows.

2.4GHz will not go through cement walls. Shooting through windows
will work if they are NOT covered with energy efficient aluminized
mylar.

>I have a small
>wireless system already, but the range is limited, it reaches outside
>the building with the drop and I can pick it up on my laptop wireless
>card (centrino) There is no chance of interference with this system as
>I live in the middle of nowhere.

You might want to try expanding your existing wireless system by
adding higher gain antennas to your existing hardware. As a rule of
thumb, 6dBi gain is double your range. 12dBi is 4 times your range.
However, line of sight is critical. If the end points can barely see
each other, you *MIGHT* get a connection but there's no guarantee it
will be stable. As the trees move, collect snow, change with the
seasons, and grow, the path will change. Chain saw time.

>Any suggestions of what I need to buy and the best place to buy them
>would be greatly appreciated

If you can't get line of sight, methinks this might be a good use for
fiber optic cable. The stuff is not cheap, but I suspect can be
obtained surplus. Same with the fiber to ethernet converters. The
cable is impervious to water damage and can be snaked inside
non-metalic conduit, PVC sprinkler tubeing, or improvised conduit.

Fiber to ethernet converter for $12.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=5823368073
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=5823368056
You'll need two.



--
Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

mr. ob wrote:

> I need the cheapest system I can find that can reach 200 feet in
> range from a computer inside one house to a computer inside another
> house 200 feet away and foliage in-between.

Jeff's advice, re a chainsaw, is good even if he intended it to be
facetious (I'm not saying he _did_... :-)). If you can get a clear line of
sight by cutting trees, then you have no problem.

> I'd like to avoid
> hardwireing it with cat-5 due to landscaping issues and I'd like to
> avoid placing electronics out in the weather because it is so damn cold
> and wet here.

Not to mention salty if you're near the coast.

> (It gets as low as -20 Celcius in Nova Scotia) I am not
> above jury-rigging stuff or modifications.

I'm doing very much the same as you (also in NS). I moved my satellite dish
to the neighbor's house 1000' away (let _her_ pay for the power!),
connected a Linksys WRT54G wireless router to the sat-modem and put it in
her living-room window (no external antenna). At my house, I connected a
second WRT54G to a 24dbi external antenna fixed to the outside of my house,
pointing at her window. In a few years I may need to take a saw to a tree
or two, but maybe I'll have cable by then.
>
> I need some tips here and perhaps one of you can help. I have a
> satellite up-down system that provides some good bandwidth.

Compared to a rural telephone line :-(

--
derek

On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 14:35:43 -0300, Derek Broughton
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>Jeff's advice, re a chainsaw, is good even if he intended it to be
>facetious (I'm not saying he _did_... :-)). If you can get a clear line of
>sight by cutting trees, then you have no problem.

I have about 4 chain saws. They all work just fine. Also do chain
saw repair when I'm bored with high tech. However, I didn't suggest
mowing down the forest. Just trim a few big branches to get
clearance. Usually if one chops the lower branches, line of sight can
be obtained.

>connected a Linksys WRT54G wireless router to the sat-modem and put it in
>her living-room window (no external antenna). At my house, I connected a
>second WRT54G to a 24dbi external antenna fixed to the outside of my house,
>pointing at her window. In a few years I may need to take a saw to a tree
>or two, but maybe I'll have cable by then.

Yep. That's the right way to do it. Lots of antenna gain where
possible. Cable? Haven't you been reading the trade journals? In a
few years, we'll all have fiber to the home. Sigh...


--
Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Thanks you so much everyone! I'm going to have to think this through
and scope it out some more, but I can't tell you how much I appreciate
the advice!

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

>>connected a Linksys WRT54G wireless router to the sat-modem and put it in
>>her living-room window (no external antenna). At my house, I connected a
>>second WRT54G to a 24dbi external antenna fixed to the outside of my
>>house,
>>pointing at her window. In a few years I may need to take a saw to a tree
>>or two, but maybe I'll have cable by then.
>
> Yep. That's the right way to do it. Lots of antenna gain where
> possible. Cable? Haven't you been reading the trade journals? In a
> few years, we'll all have fiber to the home. Sigh...

Yeah, right. I had fiber to within 100' of my house in my last home, and
couldn't get DSL. I have cable across the lake, which is what I was aiming
to get connected to this summer, but that fell through. Right now, I don't
even have a copper phone line.
--
derek

On 26 Oct 2005 13:02:11 -0700, "mr. ob" <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:

>Thanks you so much everyone! I'm going to have to think this through
>and scope it out some more, but I can't tell you how much I appreciate
>the advice!

If you want to try running hardwire on the cheap, you probably
could use the thinner cat3 four conductor phone wire for a ~10mb
connection between the computers. To do the trenching use a lawn
edger gizmo to dig a thin slit in the ground and stuff the wire
down in the slit. This has very little impact on the lawn and is
pretty quick. Critters may eventually chew on the wire, but then
it is an easy and quick thing to do. I've run phone wire to out
buildings like this to save serious digging up of my yard.

On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 17:13:53 -0300, Derek Broughton
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
>>>connected a Linksys WRT54G wireless router to the sat-modem and put it in
>>>her living-room window (no external antenna). At my house, I connected a
>>>second WRT54G to a 24dbi external antenna fixed to the outside of my
>>>house,
>>>pointing at her window. In a few years I may need to take a saw to a tree
>>>or two, but maybe I'll have cable by then.
>>
>> Yep. That's the right way to do it. Lots of antenna gain where
>> possible. Cable? Haven't you been reading the trade journals? In a
>> few years, we'll all have fiber to the home. Sigh...

>Yeah, right. I had fiber to within 100' of my house in my last home, and
>couldn't get DSL. I have cable across the lake, which is what I was aiming
>to get connected to this summer, but that fell through. Right now, I don't
>even have a copper phone line.

A friend had the same problem with his local cable and telco provider.
He really didn't want to run his own cable, internet, and telco
utility or ISP. He just wanted the service. So, he started making
noisy and obvious inquiries about trenching at the local planning
department, requested bids for running fiber around his town, asked
the local dialup ISP to survey the area to see if they were interested
in a municipal LAN, and bent the ear of the politicians with
technobabble about municipal data services.

He also had his son ship him a pile of assorted ancient routers and
switches, which he left in conspicuous places for everyone to see. I
contributed a useless Cisco 100baseT hub. Soon, the phone calls
started dribbling in from city haul, from the local cable monopoly,
and from the hole in the wall telco, asking what he was planning.
Answers were intentionally vague except for the business aspects where
he asked them about revenue and regulatory issues. He said they
sounded worried. There was also a well researched article on
municipal datacomm in the local paper.

About a month after this song and dance, the local telco announced
that it was expanding their services to include DSL. A little while
later, the cable monopoly arrived with a hastely conceived "pilot
program" that would provide CATV, internet, and VoIP service.
Meanwhile, city haul was making serious noises about municipal fiber
and sponsoring a cable cooperative.

It's now about 10 months after the start of the song and dance. He
now had DSL and the trenching plans for CATV is in the planning boards
hands.



--
Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
831.336.2558 voice
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS
http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann
(E-Mail Removed) (E-Mail Removed)