Hawking antenna and Linksys WRE54G Expander

I posted in a previous message:

"Just received my order for the Hawking HAI15SC Hi-Gain 15dbi corner
directional antenna. Replaced the right antenna on my Linksys WRT54GS
router with the Hawking antenna. My wireless-enabled laptop
experienced absolutely NO increase in signal from the Hawking antenna.
What was before a low signal was still a low signal. What was before a
very low signal was still a very low signal."

The Hawking antenna probably increased the signal range by no more
than a couple of feet. Then I wrapped the Hawking antenna with
aluminum foil. That increased the signal range by about 10 to 20 feet,
which still wasn't good enough to reach my laptop on the table in the
breakfast nook all of the time. The signal strength on my laptop
ranged from low to very low to no connection according to the icon on
the system tray, and the speed was less than 1 Mbps.

I then added the Linksys WRE54G expander. Wow! Signal strength now
ranges from good to very good and I get the full 11 Mbps on my laptop
(802.11b).

John

: I then added the Linksys WRE54G expander. Wow! Signal strength now
: ranges from good to very good and I get the full 11 Mbps on my laptop
: (802.11b).

That's how amplifier works ;-)


m.


--
Marcin Lukasik
Milea Wireless Communications, http://milea.pl
phone/fax/mobile: (++48) 13 4480070 / 13 4481148 / 509 390 490

,,the only difference between men and boys is the price of their toys''

"Marcin Lukasik" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in news:cotdci$3al$1
@atlantis.news.tpi.pl:

>: I then added the Linksys WRE54G expander. Wow! Signal strength now
>: ranges from good to very good and I get the full 11 Mbps on my laptop
>: (802.11b).
>
> That's how amplifier works ;-)
>
>
> m.
>
>

Signal repeater, if I am not mistaken.

On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 02:48:12 GMT, The Chairman <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:

>"Marcin Lukasik" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in news:cotdci$3al$1
>@atlantis.news.tpi.pl:

>>: I then added the Linksys WRE54G expander. Wow! Signal strength now
>>: ranges from good to very good and I get the full 11 Mbps on my laptop
>>: (802.11b).

>> That's how amplifier works ;-)

>Signal repeater, if I am not mistaken.

Store and Forward repeater, methinks.
http://www.linksys.com/products/prod...id=38&prid=629
My guess(tm) is that it does WDS (Wireless Distribution Something)
without the router.

Since it's half duplex, thruput is chopped in half. The connection
speed may be 11Mbits/sec, and the normal thruput may be 5Mbits/sec.
However, throw one of these into the system and you'll get
2.5Mbits/sec.

I don't like the speed loss, but it is a handy way to go around
corners.


--
Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 AE6KS 831-336-2558

Jeff,

If the expander and the router are rated as 802.11g and operate up to
54 Mbps and there is a 50 percent speed loss from the use of the
expander, wouldn't the speed on the transmit from router via expander
to wireless adaptor be 27 Mbps (1/2 X 54 Mbps)? And the transmit from
wireless adaptor (802.11b) to router be 5.5 Mbps (1/2 X 11 Mbps)?

John


Jeff Liebermann <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message news:<(E-Mail Removed)>. ..
> On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 02:48:12 GMT, The Chairman <(E-Mail Removed)>
> wrote:
>
> >"Marcin Lukasik" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in news:cotdci$3al$1
> >@atlantis.news.tpi.pl:
>
> >>: I then added the Linksys WRE54G expander. Wow! Signal strength now
> >>: ranges from good to very good and I get the full 11 Mbps on my laptop
> >>: (802.11b).
>
> >> That's how amplifier works ;-)
>
> >Signal repeater, if I am not mistaken.
>
> Store and Forward repeater, methinks.
> http://www.linksys.com/products/prod...id=38&prid=629
> My guess(tm) is that it does WDS (Wireless Distribution Something)
> without the router.
>
> Since it's half duplex, thruput is chopped in half. The connection
> speed may be 11Mbits/sec, and the normal thruput may be 5Mbits/sec.
> However, throw one of these into the system and you'll get
> 2.5Mbits/sec.
>
> I don't like the speed loss, but it is a handy way to go around
> corners.

On 5 Dec 2004 13:54:24 -0800, (E-Mail Removed) (John Mason) wrote:

>If the expander and the router are rated as 802.11g and operate up to
>54 Mbps and there is a 50 percent speed loss from the use of the
>expander, wouldn't the speed on the transmit from router via expander
>to wireless adaptor be 27 Mbps (1/2 X 54 Mbps)? And the transmit from
>wireless adaptor (802.11b) to router be 5.5 Mbps (1/2 X 11 Mbps)?

No. First, let me say there is no such term as "expander" in
wireless. That's a correct term from audio as in audio compressor and
expander. In wireless it's either an amplifier *OR* a repeater. The
industry has seen enough confusion with the misuse of the term
"bridge". I don't want to see it get any worse due to marketing hype
and metaphor abuse. In this case, it's a wireless "store and forward
repeater".

802.11g has a connection speed of up to 54Mbits/sec. That's not the
thruput or speed at which you can transfer files. Normally, the
thruput is about half of the connection speed. Therefore, you can
expect to see about 25-30Mbits/sec thruput with 802.11g, when
connected at 54Mbits/sec.

Now, a store and forward repeater only transits and receives one at a
time. Same with the 802.11g access point and client radio.
Therefore, the access point will transmit, while the repeater will
receive. It stores the received packet, and then switches to
transmit. That goes to the client radio which is now in receive.
Since only ONE transmitter can be on at a time, the date rate of two
transmitters in series (store and forward) is exactly half of the
normal data rate without the repeater.

The same applies to 802.11b. You can get up to an 11Mbit/sec
connection, but you will only be able to move data at 4-5Mbits/sec.
Add a repeater and it gets cut in half again to about 2Mbits/sec
thruput. Actually, 802.11b is considerably less "efficient" in terms
of overhead and has a thruput of less than 50% of the connection
speed.

It also make a difference whether you're moving TCP packets or UDP
packets. TCP requires an acknowledgment packet (ACK) while UDP does
not. Therefore, UDP packets move somewhat faster (about 20%) than TCP
for 802.11b and probably somewhat less for 802.11g.

Drivel: My your turbo, enhanced, afterburner, overdrive, expanded,
super-G, 15x, 108Mbps, boosted, wireless bridge meet all the
expectations such superlatives imply. My father once told me to be
wary of anything with super, amazing, magic, miracle, or enhanced in
the name.

--
Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 AE6KS 831-336-2558

"Jeff Liebermann" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in
message news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> On 5 Dec 2004 13:54:24 -0800, (E-Mail Removed) (John
> Mason) wrote:
>
>>If the expander and the router are rated as 802.11g and
>>operate up to
>>54 Mbps and there is a 50 percent speed loss from the use
>>of the
>>expander, wouldn't the speed on the transmit from router
>>via expander
>>to wireless adaptor be 27 Mbps (1/2 X 54 Mbps)? And the
>>transmit from
>>wireless adaptor (802.11b) to router be 5.5 Mbps (1/2 X 11
>>Mbps)?
>
> No. First, let me say there is no such term as
> "expander" in
> wireless. That's a correct term from audio as in audio
> compressor and
> expander. In wireless it's either an amplifier *OR* a
> repeater. The
> industry has seen enough confusion with the misuse of the
> term
> "bridge". I don't want to see it get any worse due to
> marketing hype
> and metaphor abuse. In this case, it's a wireless "store
> and forward
> repeater".
>
> 802.11g has a connection speed of up to 54Mbits/sec.
> That's not the
> thruput or speed at which you can transfer files.
> Normally, the
> thruput is about half of the connection speed. Therefore,
> you can
> expect to see about 25-30Mbits/sec thruput with 802.11g,
> when
> connected at 54Mbits/sec.
>
> Now, a store and forward repeater only transits and
> receives one at a
> time. Same with the 802.11g access point and client
> radio.
> Therefore, the access point will transmit, while the
> repeater will
> receive. It stores the received packet, and then switches
> to
> transmit. That goes to the client radio which is now in
> receive.
> Since only ONE transmitter can be on at a time, the date
> rate of two
> transmitters in series (store and forward) is exactly half
> of the
> normal data rate without the repeater.
>
> The same applies to 802.11b. You can get up to an
> 11Mbit/sec
> connection, but you will only be able to move data at
> 4-5Mbits/sec.
> Add a repeater and it gets cut in half again to about
> 2Mbits/sec
> thruput. Actually, 802.11b is considerably less
> "efficient" in terms
> of overhead and has a thruput of less than 50% of the
> connection
> speed.
>
> It also make a difference whether you're moving TCP
> packets or UDP
> packets. TCP requires an acknowledgment packet (ACK)
> while UDP does
> not. Therefore, UDP packets move somewhat faster (about
> 20%) than TCP
> for 802.11b and probably somewhat less for 802.11g.
>
> Drivel: My your turbo, enhanced, afterburner, overdrive,
> expanded,
> super-G, 15x, 108Mbps, boosted, wireless bridge meet all
> the
> expectations such superlatives imply. My father once told
> me to be
> wary of anything with super, amazing, magic, miracle, or
> enhanced in
> the name.
>
> --
> Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
> 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Santa Cruz CA 95060 AE6KS 831-336-2558


Actually, with a single repeater in line, the transfer speed
could approach 50%, but never equal it.

There is always the possibility of an inordinate amount of
hang time between the repeater's reception of the data and
then the retransmission. Further slowing throughput would be
marginal signal conditions, such as people/pets moving in
the environment blocking signals or causing multipath
interference. And, of course, someone in the neighborhood
could also be transmitting on the same frequency with a
similar device, or the family's microwave oven being on.

I have used a friend's simplex repeater on two meter phone.
It was better than nothing, but not by much. Still, with
data, it would not be as bothersome as with telephony.

Amazing Seismo

Jeff Liebermann <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in
news:(E-Mail Removed):

> On 5 Dec 2004 13:54:24 -0800, (E-Mail Removed) (John Mason) wrote:
>
>>If the expander and the router are rated as 802.11g and operate up to
>>54 Mbps and there is a 50 percent speed loss from the use of the
>>expander, wouldn't the speed on the transmit from router via expander
>>to wireless adaptor be 27 Mbps (1/2 X 54 Mbps)? And the transmit from
>>wireless adaptor (802.11b) to router be 5.5 Mbps (1/2 X 11 Mbps)?
>
> No. First, let me say there is no such term as "expander" in
> wireless. That's a correct term from audio as in audio compressor and
> expander. In wireless it's either an amplifier *OR* a repeater.

Amplifiers are always connected to the wireless access point, and repeaters
are wireless, ala Linksys' and Apple's range extenders, correct?

On Mon, 06 Dec 2004 08:57:23 GMT, The Chairman <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:

>Jeff Liebermann <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in
>news:(E-Mail Removed) :
>
>> On 5 Dec 2004 13:54:24 -0800, (E-Mail Removed) (John Mason) wrote:
>>
>>>If the expander and the router are rated as 802.11g and operate up to
>>>54 Mbps and there is a 50 percent speed loss from the use of the
>>>expander, wouldn't the speed on the transmit from router via expander
>>>to wireless adaptor be 27 Mbps (1/2 X 54 Mbps)? And the transmit from
>>>wireless adaptor (802.11b) to router be 5.5 Mbps (1/2 X 11 Mbps)?
>>
>> No. First, let me say there is no such term as "expander" in
>> wireless. That's a correct term from audio as in audio compressor and
>> expander. In wireless it's either an amplifier *OR* a repeater.

>Amplifiers are always connected to the wireless access point, and repeaters
>are wireless, ala Linksys' and Apple's range extenders, correct?

Yep. I didn't know Apple had a "range extender". Amplifiers are
connected to an antenna port on either access points, wireless
routers, or client radios (with external antenna connectors). The
basic idea behind an amplifier is to eliminate the coax cable loss
between the radio and the antenna. There are two basic types, with
AGC (automagic gain control) and without AGC. The amps without AGC
require exactly the proper amount of transmit signal to work. Add or
subtract any coax cable and the tx amplifier will either overload
(belching garbage) or not supply rated power. AGC compensates for
variations in coax loss, but is more expensive, introduces some tx/rx
delays, and usually has slightly less tx gain. There is no speed loss
when using an amplifier.

Repeaters require no direct cable connection to either the access
point or client radio. The store and forward type cut bandwidth in
half.

There are two types of repeaters. The proprietary repeaters in the
WAP54G and such tend to only work with the same manufacturers chipset.
(Note: It's the chipset, not the manufacturer, that's important). See
http://www.dslreports.com/speak/print/default;10096640
In addition, WPA doesn't work in the repeat mode. Nice mess.

The other type of repeater is WDS (wireless distribution something).
I don't know much about it, but it's also chipset proprietary and not
universally interoperable. Hopefully, it will get widespread support
as it seems genuinely useful.

There are also cross channel repeaters that use two access points,
back to back. These can transmit and receive simulateneously and
therefore do NOT cut bandwidth in half. The access point and client
radios are on different channels, but that's usually not a problem.

Mesh networks also use either store and forward or cross channel
repeaters.



--
Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 AE6KS 831-336-2558

The Chairman <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> Amplifiers are always connected to the wireless access point, and repeaters
> are wireless, ala Linksys' and Apple's range extenders, correct?

Apple doesn't use the "repeater" or "extender" terminology but refers to
"extending the range" of wireless networks with WDS or roaming. Other
than adapter cards for Macs, Apple's only wireless hardware is the
Extreme and Express "base stations" (combination access points and
routers).

Apple uses the terms "main", "relay", and "remote" to describe a base
station's function in a Wireless Distribution System. A "main" functions
as a router, and a "remote" only communicates with one other base
station. All three types can also handle wireless clients.

A description and illustration can be found in Designing AirPort
Networks or AirPort Networks for Windows, available at
<http://www.apple.com/support/airport/>.