Hawking 8db gain Dish woes.

Ok. I purchased one of these silly 50s sci-fi looking
adapters to see if I could lock onto more wi-fi routers
in my neighborhood; I was going to go with a cantenna
but I didn't want to buy a new PCI card and pigtail.

This is the dish

http://tinyurl.com/82alk

So, I hooked it up to my computer which has
a cheap Wireless B PCI card. Normally, I get about 7
or 8 neighborhood wireless networks and can connect
to them sometimes with "Very Good" or "Excellent" signal readings.
My own Wireless B router usually comes in "Excellent."

I was expecting to see more networks and pull better
signals from the preexisting networks (routers) with this
dish, but after installing the driver and using its networking
configuration software, I found that all I could get is
"Low" "Very Low" and rarely "Good" signals.

The dish should have a 8db gain. I tried pointing it in all
directions and angles...outside my windows...but this thing
would not get any additional router signals and when it
found the older signals it didn't connect very well. The cheap
wireless B PCI card did much better without having to aim it.

I've contacted their tech support...and the thing might be
defective, but am I missing something here?? Do these
"gain" antennas only connect to networks that are normally
out of the distance of typical wi-fi adapters and do little to
lock onto to closer signals? One would expect that these
kind of dishes would be useful in determining from which direction
a signal is coming from...especially with built in signal locator LEDs.

This Hawking dish is a big let down. Its supposed to be Plug and Play.
Any input would be much appreciated.

Don

On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 02:10:59 GMT, "Don W. McCollough"
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>http://tinyurl.com/82alk
>The dish should have a 8db gain. I tried pointing it in all
>directions and angles...outside my windows...but this thing
>would not get any additional router signals and when it
>found the older signals it didn't connect very well. The cheap
>wireless B PCI card did much better without having to aim it.

Chuckle.

I can't really tell what's inside or how it works, but let's pretend
it's a properly designed parabolic dish. Could you measure the dish
diameter? My guess(tm) is about 15cm.

The theoretical power gain of a dish is roughly:
(circumference / wavelength) ^2
(Pi * 15cm / 12.5cm ) ^2 = (3.14 * 15 / 12.5)^2 = 14.2
Converting to decibels:
Gain = 10 * log(14.2) = 11.5 dBi
However, that's assuming perfect illumination and efficiency. Well
designed dish antennas have about 50% efficient or a -3dB loss. Do
the maximum gain of this contrivance is:
11.5 - 3 = 8.5dBi
Yeah, 8dBi is theoretically possible.

The beam width would be:
1.2 * wavelength / dish diameter) in radians
(where 2 * 3.14 radians equals 180 degrees).

wavelength = 3x10^8 meters/sec / 2400x10^6 Hz = 0.125 meters
Dish diameter = 15 cm (my guess)
1.2 * 0.125 / 0.15 = 1.0 radians
1.0 radians * 180 / Pi = 57 degrees.
With 57 degree beam width, this is not a very directional antenna. Of
course this assume that's its really a parabolic reflector. My guess
is that the feed is anything but ideal for illuminating such a small
dish. Methinks that the USB dongle at the center has a PIFA or
meandering 1/4 wave element for an antenna. These radiate roughly in
a spherical pattern, where the energy goes in all directions roughly
equally. That means a large part of the signal goes in directions
other than hitting the reflector and going in the direction of the
access point. I previous ground through the numbers at:
| http://groups.google.com/group/alt.i...7ddbbf5aa01dd7


--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558 (E-Mail Removed)
# http://802.11junk.com (E-Mail Removed)
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

"Jeff Liebermann" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news(E-Mail Removed)...
> On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 02:10:59 GMT, "Don W. McCollough"
> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>>http://tinyurl.com/82alk
>>The dish should have a 8db gain. I tried pointing it in all
>>directions and angles...outside my windows...but this thing
>>would not get any additional router signals and when it
>>found the older signals it didn't connect very well. The cheap
>>wireless B PCI card did much better without having to aim it.
>
> Chuckle.
>
> I can't really tell what's inside or how it works, but let's pretend
> it's a properly designed parabolic dish. Could you measure the dish
> diameter? My guess(tm) is about 15cm.
>
> The theoretical power gain of a dish is roughly:
> (circumference / wavelength) ^2
> (Pi * 15cm / 12.5cm ) ^2 = (3.14 * 15 / 12.5)^2 = 14.2
> Converting to decibels:
> Gain = 10 * log(14.2) = 11.5 dBi
> However, that's assuming perfect illumination and efficiency. Well
> designed dish antennas have about 50% efficient or a -3dB loss. Do
> the maximum gain of this contrivance is:
> 11.5 - 3 = 8.5dBi
> Yeah, 8dBi is theoretically possible.
>
> The beam width would be:
> 1.2 * wavelength / dish diameter) in radians
> (where 2 * 3.14 radians equals 180 degrees).
>
> wavelength = 3x10^8 meters/sec / 2400x10^6 Hz = 0.125 meters
> Dish diameter = 15 cm (my guess)
> 1.2 * 0.125 / 0.15 = 1.0 radians
> 1.0 radians * 180 / Pi = 57 degrees.
> With 57 degree beam width, this is not a very directional antenna. Of
> course this assume that's its really a parabolic reflector. My guess
> is that the feed is anything but ideal for illuminating such a small
> dish. Methinks that the USB dongle at the center has a PIFA or
> meandering 1/4 wave element for an antenna. These radiate roughly in
> a spherical pattern, where the energy goes in all directions roughly
> equally. That means a large part of the signal goes in directions
> other than hitting the reflector and going in the direction of the
> access point. I previous ground through the numbers at:
> |
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.i...7ddbbf5aa01dd7


Thanks for the calculations. The dish is actually (more like) 12cm. And
57 degrees isn't that directional, which makes me wonder why this thing
won't pull in a better signal than my standard PCI card. It should, if
aimed
at a nearby broadcasting router give *some* gain in signal...but nada.
I've contacted
Hawking Tech tech support, lets see what they say.


> --
> # Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
> # 831-336-2558 (E-Mail Removed)
> # http://802.11junk.com (E-Mail Removed)
> # http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

"Don W. McCollough" <(E-Mail Removed)> hath wroth:

>
>"Jeff Liebermann" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>news(E-Mail Removed).. .
>> On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 02:10:59 GMT, "Don W. McCollough"
>> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>
>>>http://tinyurl.com/82alk
>>>The dish should have a 8db gain. I tried pointing it in all
>>>directions and angles...outside my windows...but this thing
>>>would not get any additional router signals and when it
>>>found the older signals it didn't connect very well. The cheap
>>>wireless B PCI card did much better without having to aim it.
>>
>> Chuckle.
>>
>> I can't really tell what's inside or how it works, but let's pretend
>> it's a properly designed parabolic dish. Could you measure the dish
>> diameter? My guess(tm) is about 15cm.
>>
>> The theoretical power gain of a dish is roughly:
>> (circumference / wavelength) ^2
>> (Pi * 15cm / 12.5cm ) ^2 = (3.14 * 15 / 12.5)^2 = 14.2
>> Converting to decibels:
>> Gain = 10 * log(14.2) = 11.5 dBi
>> However, that's assuming perfect illumination and efficiency. Well
>> designed dish antennas have about 50% efficient or a -3dB loss. Do
>> the maximum gain of this contrivance is:
>> 11.5 - 3 = 8.5dBi
>> Yeah, 8dBi is theoretically possible.
>>
>> The beam width would be:
>> 1.2 * wavelength / dish diameter) in radians
>> (where 2 * 3.14 radians equals 180 degrees).
>>
>> wavelength = 3x10^8 meters/sec / 2400x10^6 Hz = 0.125 meters
>> Dish diameter = 15 cm (my guess)
>> 1.2 * 0.125 / 0.15 = 1.0 radians
>> 1.0 radians * 180 / Pi = 57 degrees.
>> With 57 degree beam width, this is not a very directional antenna. Of
>> course this assume that's its really a parabolic reflector. My guess
>> is that the feed is anything but ideal for illuminating such a small
>> dish. Methinks that the USB dongle at the center has a PIFA or
>> meandering 1/4 wave element for an antenna. These radiate roughly in
>> a spherical pattern, where the energy goes in all directions roughly
>> equally. That means a large part of the signal goes in directions
>> other than hitting the reflector and going in the direction of the
>> access point. I previous ground through the numbers at:
>> |
>> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.i...7ddbbf5aa01dd7
>
>
>Thanks for the calculations. The dish is actually (more like) 12cm. And
>57 degrees isn't that directional, which makes me wonder why this thing
>won't pull in a better signal than my standard PCI card. It should, if
>aimed
>at a nearby broadcasting router give *some* gain in signal...but nada.
>I've contacted
>Hawking Tech tech support, lets see what they say.

Well, the numbers I calculated are for an idea dish antenna. My
guess(tm) is that this thing is anything but idea. Did you read my
Google Groups reference to what happens when you use a USB dongle as a
feed for a parabolic 18" satellite dish? The illumination pattern of
the feed (i.e. the dongle) is VERY lossy, with much of the signal
going off in useless directions. My guess(tm) is only about 15% of
the RF that leaves the USB dongle, hits the reflector and goes in the
general direction of the access point. 0.15 is about:
10 log (0.15) = -8dB
of loss. That makes the antenna gain about:
8dBi (theory max gain) - 8dB (illum loss) = 0dB
In other words, this contrivance is slightly better than the USB
dongle by itself.

--
Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

"Jeff Liebermann" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> "Don W. McCollough" <(E-Mail Removed)> hath wroth:
>
>>
>>"Jeff Liebermann" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>>news(E-Mail Removed). ..
>>> On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 02:10:59 GMT, "Don W. McCollough"
>>> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>>
>>>>http://tinyurl.com/82alk
>>>>The dish should have a 8db gain. I tried pointing it in all
>>>>directions and angles...outside my windows...but this thing
>>>>would not get any additional router signals and when it
>>>>found the older signals it didn't connect very well. The cheap
>>>>wireless B PCI card did much better without having to aim it.
>>>
>>> Chuckle.
>>>
>>> I can't really tell what's inside or how it works, but let's pretend
>>> it's a properly designed parabolic dish. Could you measure the dish
>>> diameter? My guess(tm) is about 15cm.
>>>
>>> The theoretical power gain of a dish is roughly:
>>> (circumference / wavelength) ^2
>>> (Pi * 15cm / 12.5cm ) ^2 = (3.14 * 15 / 12.5)^2 = 14.2
>>> Converting to decibels:
>>> Gain = 10 * log(14.2) = 11.5 dBi
>>> However, that's assuming perfect illumination and efficiency. Well
>>> designed dish antennas have about 50% efficient or a -3dB loss. Do
>>> the maximum gain of this contrivance is:
>>> 11.5 - 3 = 8.5dBi
>>> Yeah, 8dBi is theoretically possible.
>>>
>>> The beam width would be:
>>> 1.2 * wavelength / dish diameter) in radians
>>> (where 2 * 3.14 radians equals 180 degrees).
>>>
>>> wavelength = 3x10^8 meters/sec / 2400x10^6 Hz = 0.125 meters
>>> Dish diameter = 15 cm (my guess)
>>> 1.2 * 0.125 / 0.15 = 1.0 radians
>>> 1.0 radians * 180 / Pi = 57 degrees.
>>> With 57 degree beam width, this is not a very directional antenna. Of
>>> course this assume that's its really a parabolic reflector. My guess
>>> is that the feed is anything but ideal for illuminating such a small
>>> dish. Methinks that the USB dongle at the center has a PIFA or
>>> meandering 1/4 wave element for an antenna. These radiate roughly in
>>> a spherical pattern, where the energy goes in all directions roughly
>>> equally. That means a large part of the signal goes in directions
>>> other than hitting the reflector and going in the direction of the
>>> access point. I previous ground through the numbers at:
>>> |
>>> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.i...7ddbbf5aa01dd7
>>
>>
>>Thanks for the calculations. The dish is actually (more like) 12cm.
>>And
>>57 degrees isn't that directional, which makes me wonder why this thing
>>won't pull in a better signal than my standard PCI card. It should, if
>>aimed
>>at a nearby broadcasting router give *some* gain in signal...but nada.
>>I've contacted
>>Hawking Tech tech support, lets see what they say.
>
> Well, the numbers I calculated are for an idea dish antenna. My
> guess(tm) is that this thing is anything but idea. Did you read my
> Google Groups reference to what happens when you use a USB dongle as a
> feed for a parabolic 18" satellite dish? The illumination pattern of
> the feed (i.e. the dongle) is VERY lossy, with much of the signal
> going off in useless directions. My guess(tm) is only about 15% of
> the RF that leaves the USB dongle, hits the reflector and goes in the
> general direction of the access point. 0.15 is about:
> 10 log (0.15) = -8dB
> of loss. That makes the antenna gain about:
> 8dBi (theory max gain) - 8dB (illum loss) = 0dB
> In other words, this contrivance is slightly better than the USB
> dongle by itself.


That's dissapointing to hear. Hawking tech support claims that the thing
is
defective...send in for a replacement etc.

Out of curiosity would the output of a PCI card be significantly better
than a USB dongle?

-Don


> Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
> 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

"Jeff Liebermann" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> "Don W. McCollough" <(E-Mail Removed)> hath wroth:
>
>>
>>"Jeff Liebermann" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>>news(E-Mail Removed). ..
>>> On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 02:10:59 GMT, "Don W. McCollough"
>>> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>>
>>>>http://tinyurl.com/82alk
>>>>The dish should have a 8db gain. I tried pointing it in all
>>>>directions and angles...outside my windows...but this thing
>>>>would not get any additional router signals and when it
>>>>found the older signals it didn't connect very well. The cheap
>>>>wireless B PCI card did much better without having to aim it.
>>>
>>> Chuckle.
>>>
>>> I can't really tell what's inside or how it works, but let's pretend
>>> it's a properly designed parabolic dish. Could you measure the dish
>>> diameter? My guess(tm) is about 15cm.
>>>
>>> The theoretical power gain of a dish is roughly:
>>> (circumference / wavelength) ^2
>>> (Pi * 15cm / 12.5cm ) ^2 = (3.14 * 15 / 12.5)^2 = 14.2
>>> Converting to decibels:
>>> Gain = 10 * log(14.2) = 11.5 dBi
>>> However, that's assuming perfect illumination and efficiency. Well
>>> designed dish antennas have about 50% efficient or a -3dB loss. Do
>>> the maximum gain of this contrivance is:
>>> 11.5 - 3 = 8.5dBi
>>> Yeah, 8dBi is theoretically possible.
>>>
>>> The beam width would be:
>>> 1.2 * wavelength / dish diameter) in radians
>>> (where 2 * 3.14 radians equals 180 degrees).
>>>
>>> wavelength = 3x10^8 meters/sec / 2400x10^6 Hz = 0.125 meters
>>> Dish diameter = 15 cm (my guess)
>>> 1.2 * 0.125 / 0.15 = 1.0 radians
>>> 1.0 radians * 180 / Pi = 57 degrees.
>>> With 57 degree beam width, this is not a very directional antenna. Of
>>> course this assume that's its really a parabolic reflector. My guess
>>> is that the feed is anything but ideal for illuminating such a small
>>> dish. Methinks that the USB dongle at the center has a PIFA or
>>> meandering 1/4 wave element for an antenna. These radiate roughly in
>>> a spherical pattern, where the energy goes in all directions roughly
>>> equally. That means a large part of the signal goes in directions
>>> other than hitting the reflector and going in the direction of the
>>> access point. I previous ground through the numbers at:
>>> |
>>> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.i...7ddbbf5aa01dd7
>>
>>
>>Thanks for the calculations. The dish is actually (more like) 12cm.
>>And
>>57 degrees isn't that directional, which makes me wonder why this thing
>>won't pull in a better signal than my standard PCI card. It should, if
>>aimed
>>at a nearby broadcasting router give *some* gain in signal...but nada.
>>I've contacted
>>Hawking Tech tech support, lets see what they say.
>
> Well, the numbers I calculated are for an idea dish antenna. My
> guess(tm) is that this thing is anything but idea. Did you read my
> Google Groups reference to what happens when you use a USB dongle as a
> feed for a parabolic 18" satellite dish? The illumination pattern of
> the feed (i.e. the dongle) is VERY lossy, with much of the signal
> going off in useless directions. My guess(tm) is only about 15% of
> the RF that leaves the USB dongle, hits the reflector and goes in the
> general direction of the access point. 0.15 is about:
> 10 log (0.15) = -8dB
> of loss. That makes the antenna gain about:
> 8dBi (theory max gain) - 8dB (illum loss) = 0dB
> In other words, this contrivance is slightly better than the USB
> dongle by itself.
>
> --
> Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
> 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Jeff,

Something like this would probably be a better bet eh? 24db gain.

http://tinyurl.com/bty55

But could I mount this thing indoors?

TIA
-Don

On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 00:21:31 GMT, "Don W. McCollough"
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>That's dissapointing to hear. Hawking tech support claims that the thing
>is
>defective...send in for a replacement etc.

Your dime. I would ask for a refund and buy something that works.

>Out of curiosity would the output of a PCI card be significantly better
>than a USB dongle?

No, not really. The typical USB dongle and PCI cards vary between
+13dBm and +17dBm, mostly towards the lower end. However, there is a
difference in antenna gain. The typical USB device, with a PIFA or
meandering monopole antenna, has a gain of about -2dBi. The PCI
antenna is much better at about 2 dBi. The 4dB difference should
theoretically yield about 70% more range.

--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558 (E-Mail Removed)
# http://802.11junk.com (E-Mail Removed)
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 01:19:20 GMT, "Don W. McCollough"
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>Something like this would probably be a better bet eh? 24db gain.
>http://tinyurl.com/bty55

Yep. Much better. That's the old PacificWireless antenna. I have a
pile and use them for point to point links. It has a rather narrow
beamwidth (about 5 to 7 degrees) and may be difficult to aim and keep
stable.
http://www.pacwireless.com/products/...to-point.shtml

>But could I mount this thing indoors?

Are you married? Are you planning to stay married?
Technically, you can mount it in a window and use it indoors. If the
walls are like paper, you might be able to shoot through them.

--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558 (E-Mail Removed)
# http://802.11junk.com (E-Mail Removed)
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 00:21:31 GMT, "Don W. McCollough"
> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>
>>That's dissapointing to hear. Hawking tech support claims that the thing
>>is
>>defective...send in for a replacement etc.
>
>
> Your dime. I would ask for a refund and buy something that works.
>
>
>>Out of curiosity would the output of a PCI card be significantly better
>>than a USB dongle?
>
>
> No, not really. The typical USB dongle and PCI cards vary between
> +13dBm and +17dBm, mostly towards the lower end. However, there is a
> difference in antenna gain. The typical USB device, with a PIFA or
> meandering monopole antenna, has a gain of about -2dBi. The PCI
> antenna is much better at about 2 dBi. The 4dB difference should
> theoretically yield about 70% more range.
>
Of course, unless your PCI card has a cable allowing repositioning of
the antenna, the dongle has the advantage of being able to position it
for best reception.

Bob

Don't know the experiences others have had with Hawking Tech .
They seem to be somewhat slow on the draw - service and even rebates.
The last simple question I had took weeks to answer with the tech
apologizing that " we have worked off our feet and yes it should work".
Anyone else have similar or diffirent experiences ?

Bob Alston wrote:
> Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> > On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 00:21:31 GMT, "Don W. McCollough"
> > <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>That's dissapointing to hear. Hawking tech support claims that the thing
> >>is
> >>defective...send in for a replacement etc.
> >
> >
> > Your dime. I would ask for a refund and buy something that works.
> >
> >
> >>Out of curiosity would the output of a PCI card be significantly better
> >>than a USB dongle?
> >
> >
> > No, not really. The typical USB dongle and PCI cards vary between
> > +13dBm and +17dBm, mostly towards the lower end. However, there is a
> > difference in antenna gain. The typical USB device, with a PIFA or
> > meandering monopole antenna, has a gain of about -2dBi. The PCI
> > antenna is much better at about 2 dBi. The 4dB difference should
> > theoretically yield about 70% more range.
> >
> Of course, unless your PCI card has a cable allowing repositioning of
> the antenna, the dongle has the advantage of being able to position it
> for best reception.
>
> Bob