Gradwell and Tiscali LLU

I'm trying to reconcile in my mind two apparently incompatible views,
and would welcome any informed comments :-)

1. Gradwell have for many years had an excellent reputation anomg the UK
cognoscenti for their service and infrastructure. I use them currently
for secondary DNS service and would be happy to use them for other services
as I had need.

2. Tiscali seem to have a poor reputation for service, at least in the
uk.telecom.* newsgroups, and I remember seeing many complaints from people
who found themselves moved from BT to Tiscali LLU (Plusnet customers?).

I was looking on the Gradwell site the other day at their Business Broadband
offerings, and they state quite clearly that they use Tiscali LLU. So I wasn't
sure what to think: (a) Gradwell are going downhill, or (b) Tiscali LLU is
not (no longer?) as bad as the reputation I've seen.

So I guess I'm ill-informed or out of date somewhere along the line. Would
anyone with experience of the Gradwell Business Broadband on Tiscali LLU
care to comment?

Also, is LLU likely to gain me anything, performance-wise, if I'm already
at the end of a 4.3km piece of BT's wet string, and can't get much more
than 2Mbit on ADSLmax?

Cheers
Tony
--
Tony Mountifield
Work: (E-Mail Removed) - http://www.softins.co.uk
Play: (E-Mail Removed) - http://tony.mountifield.org

"Tony Mountifield" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:gu23ph$i5$(E-Mail Removed)...
> I'm trying to reconcile in my mind two apparently incompatible views,
> and would welcome any informed comments :-)
>
> 1. Gradwell have for many years had an excellent reputation anomg the UK
> cognoscenti for their service and infrastructure. I use them currently
> for secondary DNS service and would be happy to use them for other
> services
> as I had need.
>
> 2. Tiscali seem to have a poor reputation for service, at least in the
> uk.telecom.* newsgroups, and I remember seeing many complaints from people
> who found themselves moved from BT to Tiscali LLU (Plusnet customers?).
>
> I was looking on the Gradwell site the other day at their Business
> Broadband
> offerings, and they state quite clearly that they use Tiscali LLU. So I
> wasn't
> sure what to think: (a) Gradwell are going downhill, or (b) Tiscali LLU is
> not (no longer?) as bad as the reputation I've seen.
>
> So I guess I'm ill-informed or out of date somewhere along the line. Would
> anyone with experience of the Gradwell Business Broadband on Tiscali LLU
> care to comment?
>
> Also, is LLU likely to gain me anything, performance-wise, if I'm already
> at the end of a 4.3km piece of BT's wet string, and can't get much more
> than 2Mbit on ADSLmax?

From what I can remember of the Plusnet debacle (I wasn't involved and
Plusnet no longer offer/compel their customers to transfer to LLU) it
offered an increase in upload speed only.

George

Tony Mountifield <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> I'm trying to reconcile in my mind two apparently incompatible views [...]

> 1. Gradwell have for many years had an excellent reputation [...]
> 2. Tiscali seem to have a poor reputation for service [...]

> I was looking on the Gradwell site the other day at their [Gradwell's]
> Business Broadband offerings, and they state quite clearly that they
> use Tiscali LLU.

Tiscali's consumer broadband operation is distinct from its wholesale
LLU operation.

Chris

"George Weston" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>
> "Tony Mountifield" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:gu23ph$i5$(E-Mail Removed)...
>> I'm trying to reconcile in my mind two apparently incompatible views,
>> and would welcome any informed comments :-)
>>
>> 1. Gradwell have for many years had an excellent reputation anomg the UK
>> cognoscenti for their service and infrastructure. I use them currently
>> for secondary DNS service and would be happy to use them for other
>> services
>> as I had need.
>>
>> 2. Tiscali seem to have a poor reputation for service, at least in the
>> uk.telecom.* newsgroups, and I remember seeing many complaints from
>> people
>> who found themselves moved from BT to Tiscali LLU (Plusnet customers?).
>>
>> I was looking on the Gradwell site the other day at their Business
>> Broadband
>> offerings, and they state quite clearly that they use Tiscali LLU. So I
>> wasn't
>> sure what to think: (a) Gradwell are going downhill, or (b) Tiscali LLU
>> is
>> not (no longer?) as bad as the reputation I've seen.
>>
>> So I guess I'm ill-informed or out of date somewhere along the line.
>> Would
>> anyone with experience of the Gradwell Business Broadband on Tiscali LLU
>> care to comment?
>>
>> Also, is LLU likely to gain me anything, performance-wise, if I'm already
>> at the end of a 4.3km piece of BT's wet string, and can't get much more
>> than 2Mbit on ADSLmax?
>
> From what I can remember of the Plusnet debacle (I wasn't involved and
> Plusnet no longer offer/compel their customers to transfer to LLU) it
> offered an increase in upload speed only.

The ordinary Tiscali broadband customers were quietly cut-over
to the LLU kit as it was rolled out in the exchanges.

--
Graham.

%Profound_observation%

(E-Mail Removed) (Tony Mountifield) considered Fri, 8 May 2009
20:13:37 +0000 (UTC) the perfect time to write:

>I'm trying to reconcile in my mind two apparently incompatible views,
>and would welcome any informed comments :-)
>
>1. Gradwell have for many years had an excellent reputation anomg the UK
>cognoscenti for their service and infrastructure. I use them currently
>for secondary DNS service and would be happy to use them for other services
>as I had need.
>
>2. Tiscali seem to have a poor reputation for service, at least in the
>uk.telecom.* newsgroups, and I remember seeing many complaints from people
>who found themselves moved from BT to Tiscali LLU (Plusnet customers?).
>
>I was looking on the Gradwell site the other day at their Business Broadband
>offerings, and they state quite clearly that they use Tiscali LLU. So I wasn't
>sure what to think: (a) Gradwell are going downhill, or (b) Tiscali LLU is
>not (no longer?) as bad as the reputation I've seen.
>
>So I guess I'm ill-informed or out of date somewhere along the line. Would
>anyone with experience of the Gradwell Business Broadband on Tiscali LLU
>care to comment?
>
>Also, is LLU likely to gain me anything, performance-wise, if I'm already
>at the end of a 4.3km piece of BT's wet string, and can't get much more
>than 2Mbit on ADSLmax?
>
>Cheers
>Tony

I wouldn't touch it with any length pole at the moment, as the Tiscali
LLU is about to be assimilated into Carphone Warehouse LLU.
Even if by some miracle, they could both be brought up to a decent
standard, the merger is bound to cause problems.

"Peter Crosland" <(E-Mail Removed)> considered Sat, 9 May 2009
02:50:01 +0100 the perfect time to write:

>>>I'm trying to reconcile in my mind two apparently incompatible views,
>>>and would welcome any informed comments :-)
>>>
>>>1. Gradwell have for many years had an excellent reputation anomg the UK
>>>cognoscenti for their service and infrastructure. I use them currently
>>>for secondary DNS service and would be happy to use them for other
>>>services
>>>as I had need.
>>>
>>>2. Tiscali seem to have a poor reputation for service, at least in the
>>>uk.telecom.* newsgroups, and I remember seeing many complaints from people
>>>who found themselves moved from BT to Tiscali LLU (Plusnet customers?).
>>>
>>>I was looking on the Gradwell site the other day at their Business
>>>Broadband
>>>offerings, and they state quite clearly that they use Tiscali LLU. So I
>>>wasn't
>>>sure what to think: (a) Gradwell are going downhill, or (b) Tiscali LLU is
>>>not (no longer?) as bad as the reputation I've seen.
>>>
>>>So I guess I'm ill-informed or out of date somewhere along the line. Would
>>>anyone with experience of the Gradwell Business Broadband on Tiscali LLU
>>>care to comment?
>>>
>>>Also, is LLU likely to gain me anything, performance-wise, if I'm already
>>>at the end of a 4.3km piece of BT's wet string, and can't get much more
>>>than 2Mbit on ADSLmax?
>>>
>>>Cheers
>>>Tony
>>
>> I wouldn't touch it with any length pole at the moment, as the Tiscali
>> LLU is about to be assimilated into Carphone Warehouse LLU.
>> Even if by some miracle, they could both be brought up to a decent
>> standard, the merger is bound to cause problems.
>
>I don't think so. CW have bought the Tiscali broadband customers. The LLU
>operation is a separate operation and AFAIK not part of it.
>
>Peter Crosland
>
But even if it isn't included in the sale,

a) Tiscali is still in deep financial doo-doo, and
b) How viable is the LLU operation going to be once CW have migrated
all the Tiscali BB costomers over to their own?

Moving what must be >50% of the customers off it is going to either
leave huge over capacity (which Tiscali can ill-afford) or need
capacity to be reduced, which (given Tiscalis past record) is unlikely
to go smoothly.

There may be a period of low contention, while capacity is above needs
after the Tiscali BB customers have been moved over to CW, but expect
problems when they start cutting it back, or worse, go tits up
altogether. Of course, it's possible that will happen before the
customers can be migrated to CW, in which case CW may get it anyway,
at a similarly firesale price.

On Sat, 9 May 2009 02:50:01 +0100, "Peter Crosland"
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>>>I'm trying to reconcile in my mind two apparently incompatible views,
>>>and would welcome any informed comments :-)
>>>
>>>1. Gradwell have for many years had an excellent reputation anomg the UK
>>>cognoscenti for their service and infrastructure. I use them currently
>>>for secondary DNS service and would be happy to use them for other
>>>services
>>>as I had need.
>>>
>>>2. Tiscali seem to have a poor reputation for service, at least in the
>>>uk.telecom.* newsgroups, and I remember seeing many complaints from people
>>>who found themselves moved from BT to Tiscali LLU (Plusnet customers?).
>>>
>>>I was looking on the Gradwell site the other day at their Business
>>>Broadband
>>>offerings, and they state quite clearly that they use Tiscali LLU. So I
>>>wasn't
>>>sure what to think: (a) Gradwell are going downhill, or (b) Tiscali LLU is
>>>not (no longer?) as bad as the reputation I've seen.
>>>
>>>So I guess I'm ill-informed or out of date somewhere along the line. Would
>>>anyone with experience of the Gradwell Business Broadband on Tiscali LLU
>>>care to comment?
>>>
>>>Also, is LLU likely to gain me anything, performance-wise, if I'm already
>>>at the end of a 4.3km piece of BT's wet string, and can't get much more
>>>than 2Mbit on ADSLmax?
>>>
>>>Cheers
>>>Tony
>>
>> I wouldn't touch it with any length pole at the moment, as the Tiscali
>> LLU is about to be assimilated into Carphone Warehouse LLU.
>> Even if by some miracle, they could both be brought up to a decent
>> standard, the merger is bound to cause problems.
>
>I don't think so. CW have bought the Tiscali broadband customers. The LLU
>operation is a separate operation and AFAIK not part of it.
>
>Peter Crosland
>

Sam Knows seems to indicate that CPW have bought all of Tiscalis UK
assets, which I would take to mean not only their BB customers but
everthing else as well

http://www.samknows.com/broadband/ne...-spot-594.html

In article <gu23ph$i5$(E-Mail Removed)>,
Tony Mountifield <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> [...]
> So I guess I'm ill-informed or out of date somewhere along the line. Would
> anyone with experience of the Gradwell Business Broadband on Tiscali LLU
> care to comment?
>
> Also, is LLU likely to gain me anything, performance-wise, if I'm already
> at the end of a 4.3km piece of BT's wet string, and can't get much more
> than 2Mbit on ADSLmax?

Thanks for all the responses - interesting reading. Although no-one has
said they actually use Gradwell Broadband. If anyone reading this does
use it, I'd be interested to hear about it.

Cheers
Tony
--
Tony Mountifield
Work: (E-Mail Removed) - http://www.softins.co.uk
Play: (E-Mail Removed) - http://tony.mountifield.org

My understanding is that Tiscali's wholesale operation is quite
successful and profitable. Tiscali retail isn't but they are not the
only customer.

In uk.telecom.broadband, on Tue, 12 May 2009 09:09:27, Andy Burns wrote:

>Tony Mountifield wrote:
>
>> no-one has
>> said they actually use Gradwell Broadband. If anyone reading this does
>> use it, I'd be interested to hear about it.
>
>I use and recommend many Gradwell services, but when I saw who their
>broadband was LLU'ed with I couldn't quite believe it, at least they
>are open about it (as they are for most things).

Likewise. So I use AAISP for connectivity and Gradwell for hosting.

--
Jim Crowther