Getting BT to fix an intermittent fault

This is probably just a frustrated rant...

So here's the issue - and it's been going on for some years now...

We get a period of hot, dry weather and then my ADSL line starts to
drop-out. A bit of wind, such as today makes it worse.

I've tried everything I feel I can try at my end - 3 different filters,
2 different ADSL modem/routers (although both Draytek, but different
models), going into the master socket, changed the faceplate, and so on.

My line, while under 600 metres from the exchange (a good catapault and I
could hit it), is marginal an I only just get 8Mb in and 830Kb up - that's
what I usually get though, but it's marginal and I feel it should be
much much better. (my neighbours seem rock-solib) Right now the line
stats on a Draytek 2820 router show:

ADSL Status Mode State Up Speed Down Speed SNR Margin Loop Att.
G.DMT SHOWTIME 832000 7808000 14 25

That's SNR Margin 14, Loop att. 25, although in the time I've typed
this, it's dropped twice, snr is now 18, loop 25 and upspeed has dropped
to 736K.

If I plug a phone in and listen, I hear crackles and hiss.

However, and this is where I think BT will stump me, if I unplug the
router then it's as quiet as a quiet thing (well, it's quiet to my
ageing ears, tinnitus not withstanding) When I plug the router back in,
I can hear the hiss and what I presume is some of the signalling then the
crackles happen - it's this what I believe will make BT automatically
say that it's a problem at my end. I do not think I have 4 faulty
microfilters and 2 faulty routers.

I think it's some sort of bad joint/rectification issue on the line from
my house to the pole or from the pole to the exchange (which I think
is underground)

But how do I get BT to come out and test it, and admit there's a
fault without them charging me £160 quid or whatever it is these days.
(It would be cheaper for me to install a new line, port the number into
my VoIP platform and cancel the old one - however, it's a 2-pair drop
cable into my house, so I doubt it would help)

I'm almost tempted to get a ladder and climb the pole and check the
terminations myself...

Of-course, it's going to rain later today so my problems will magically
dissapear as they usually do, so even if I did book an appointment with
BT, then there's a good chance it'll have gone by the time they turn up,
and therefore charge me )-:

Gordon

In uk.telecom Gordon Henderson <gordon+(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> However, and this is where I think BT will stump me, if I unplug the
> router then it's as quiet as a quiet thing (well, it's quiet to my
> ageing ears, tinnitus not withstanding) When I plug the router back in,
> I can hear the hiss and what I presume is some of the signalling then the
> crackles happen - it's this what I believe will make BT automatically
> say that it's a problem at my end. I do not think I have 4 faulty
> microfilters and 2 faulty routers.

We had one of those... the solution was to ring BT faults from that line so
the call centre operator could hear it down their end and book a visit.
Luckily it remained when the technician came round to see to it (he put us
on another pair, problem solved).

But that line didn't have ADSL. I hope if you indicate when they come round
the pile of hardware that you've tried it with, they'll get the message.
And the bigger the pile, the better. I assume you're doing all this with
the NTE5?

Perhaps record the crackles so you have some evidence in case it goes away?

Also, I might emphasise the problems with voice rather than broadband,
because I don't think any kind of broadband speed as guaranteed.

Do BT staff have 'test' ADSL modems in their toolkit like they have test
handsets?

Theo

In article <X5t*-m0-(E-Mail Removed)>,
Theo Markettos <theom+(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>In uk.telecom Gordon Henderson <gordon+(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>> However, and this is where I think BT will stump me, if I unplug the
>> router then it's as quiet as a quiet thing (well, it's quiet to my
>> ageing ears, tinnitus not withstanding) When I plug the router back in,
>> I can hear the hiss and what I presume is some of the signalling then the
>> crackles happen - it's this what I believe will make BT automatically
>> say that it's a problem at my end. I do not think I have 4 faulty
>> microfilters and 2 faulty routers.
>
>We had one of those... the solution was to ring BT faults from that line so
>the call centre operator could hear it down their end and book a visit.
>Luckily it remained when the technician came round to see to it (he put us
>on another pair, problem solved).

I'm sure that would solve my problem.

>But that line didn't have ADSL. I hope if you indicate when they come round
>the pile of hardware that you've tried it with, they'll get the message.
>And the bigger the pile, the better. I assume you're doing all this with
>the NTE5?

Yes. right back to the master socket with the faceplate removed. Also
tried 2 other filtered faceplates (which I don't normally use) too.

>Perhaps record the crackles so you have some evidence in case it goes away?

That's an idea. Fairly trivial for me to record them too...

>Also, I might emphasise the problems with voice rather than broadband,
>because I don't think any kind of broadband speed as guaranteed.
>
>Do BT staff have 'test' ADSL modems in their toolkit like they have test
>handsets?

I've seen them plug their own in the past... The issue I'm sort of
scared of is calling them out, having them test it, but by the time
they get here the fault will have solved itself - which I know from past
experience it will do as soon as it starts to rain.

Maybe I'll just wait until they have a free or half-price instll a 2nd
line deal going... (And read the small print!)

Gordon

In uk.telecom Gordon Henderson <gordon+(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> In article <X5t*-m0-(E-Mail Removed)>,
> Theo Markettos <theom+(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> >We had one of those... the solution was to ring BT faults from that line so
> >the call centre operator could hear it down their end and book a visit.
> >Luckily it remained when the technician came round to see to it (he put us
> >on another pair, problem solved).
>
> I'm sure that would solve my problem.

Assuming it's not your dropwire, of course. Ours goes through a tree:
poking the wire leaning out the window with a broom had no noticeable effect
so I was fairly sure the fault wasn't there..

> I've seen them plug their own in the past... The issue I'm sort of
> scared of is calling them out, having them test it, but by the time
> they get here the fault will have solved itself - which I know from past
> experience it will do as soon as it starts to rain.

Yes, I was scared of that too but it wasn't a problem. Tell Faults when you
phone that it disappears in the rain, so you're covered in case it happens
to tip it down just before they come, and they can flag it as an
intermittent fault if they have the ability on their system.

The Faults operator was reasonably helpful... once it was obvious I'd tried
all the usual stuff they were quite happy to book a visit. The technician
took one look at the problem and immediately headed outside - there wasn't
any argument of 'it's your equipment' (we don't have an NTE5 so we can't
disconnect the extensions anyway).

> Maybe I'll just wait until they have a free or half-price instll a 2nd
> line deal going... (And read the small print!)

YMMV, but I think if you make it clear you know what you're on about they
aren't going to try to pull a 'it's your fault' on you. After all, it
doesn't rain inside your house. And I don't think many people report
non-existent faults on their lines just for fun.

Theo

In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
John <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>Gordon Henderson wrote:
>> This is probably just a frustrated rant...
>>
>> So here's the issue - and it's been going on for some years now...
>>
>> We get a period of hot, dry weather and then my ADSL line starts to
>> drop-out. A bit of wind, such as today makes it worse.
>>
>> I've tried everything I feel I can try at my end - 3 different
>> filters, 2 different ADSL modem/routers (although both Draytek, but
>> different models), going into the master socket, changed the
>> faceplate, and so on.
>>
>> My line, while under 600 metres from the exchange (a good catapault
>> and I could hit it), is marginal an I only just get 8Mb in and 830Kb
>> up - that's what I usually get though, but it's marginal and I feel
>> it should be
>> much much better. (my neighbours seem rock-solib) Right now the line
>> stats on a Draytek 2820 router show:
>>
>> ADSL Status Mode State Up Speed Down Speed SNR Margin Loop Att.
>> G.DMT SHOWTIME 832000 7808000 14 25
>>
>> That's SNR Margin 14, Loop att. 25, although in the time I've typed
>> this, it's dropped twice, snr is now 18, loop 25 and upspeed has
>> dropped to 736K.
>>
>> If I plug a phone in and listen, I hear crackles and hiss.
>>
>> However, and this is where I think BT will stump me, if I unplug the
>> router then it's as quiet as a quiet thing (well, it's quiet to my
>> ageing ears, tinnitus not withstanding) When I plug the router back
>> in,
>> I can hear the hiss and what I presume is some of the signalling then
>> the crackles happen - it's this what I believe will make BT
>> automatically
>> say that it's a problem at my end. I do not think I have 4 faulty
>> microfilters and 2 faulty routers.
>>
>> I think it's some sort of bad joint/rectification issue on the line
>> from my house to the pole or from the pole to the exchange (which I
>> think
>> is underground)
>>
>> But how do I get BT to come out and test it, and admit there's a
>> fault without them charging me £160 quid or whatever it is these days.
>> (It would be cheaper for me to install a new line, port the number
>> into my VoIP platform and cancel the old one - however, it's a 2-pair
>> drop cable into my house, so I doubt it would help)
>>
>> I'm almost tempted to get a ladder and climb the pole and check the
>> terminations myself...
>>
>> Of-course, it's going to rain later today so my problems will
>> magically dissapear as they usually do, so even if I did book an
>> appointment with BT, then there's a good chance it'll have gone by
>> the time they turn up, and therefore charge me )-:
>>
>> Gordon
>
>First thing is to forget the router. Go to the NTE5 master socket and
>unscrew the bottom half of it so that you get to the hidden 'test' socket.
>Plug a filter in there and a phone into the filter. Dial 17070 and select
>'Quiet Line' test (or forget 17070 and just dial a single digit to get rid
>of dialtone).

I've done all that, thanks. I thought it was clear in my original message,
maybe not, but rest assured, I've no got a pile of kit in my dining room
where the BT line comes in and have tried every permutation of routers,
master socket, faceplete on & off, filters, etc.

>If there is any noise whatsoever on the line, the most important thing is to
>report it as a voice fault, not broadband.

I've tried to do that, but if you'd read my message, you'd see that I
don't get the noise when I don't have the router plugged in. The first
thing BT asks me is to unplug any other equipment - I do that, noise
goes away, and they say the line is OK.

>If they accept it, and there's a chance they won't because a high-resistance
>fault often tests as OK, then you need to do whatever you can to get the
>engineer to use the old "tone and amp" method of faultfinding. Basically, a
>signal generator (affectionately called a 'tone') is placed across your line
>at the exchange and a 1KHz tone squirted down it. If the line is good, ie,
>no HR fault, the engineer can short the tone out at the far end. If the tone
>can't be shorted out then there's a dis or HR fault somewhere.

They won't accept that there's a fault on the line, so I can not get a BT
engineer to do a proper line test. My fear is that BT will come on-site,
not hear any fault then charge me 160 quid.


>My first port of call would be the cab (you won't be fed directly from the
>exchange) and if OK to there then I'd come directly to your house, where I'd
>expect that the tone couldn't be shorted out. Then it's a case of working
>back towards the cab, halving the distance each time until the fault is
>found.

I'm fed from a pole - which I pointed out in my original message.

>HR faults need time, patience and the 'tone and amp' method to find because
>the test equipment used by the faults desk when you report it, and also the
>field engineer's equipment, put out such voltages/currents so as to be able
>to 'jump over' the HR joint and test OK.

BT do not, in my experience, give you time and petience these
days. They're too woried about their shareholders profits to actually
spend money on solving little issues like this.

>Having said all that, your symptoms, ie, noise when the router is plugged
>in, highly suggests faulty or poor quality filters. I'd forget individual
>filters and go for one of these filtered face plates:
>
>http://www.clarity.it/xcart/product....cat=262&page=1

I've tried alternative faceplaces, filters and whatnot. Even no filter
with the router plugged right into the test socket.

I'm just whinging about it because I can and it makes me feel better. When
it's really bad, I strip out and re-wire all my internal wiring in the
hope it was me, but it never is. Do all the tests from the test socket
and it's always the same. This has been going on for years now - every
time I get a week or so of dry weather, I know to expect problems, but
have never been able to get BT to accept it and do a line test without
the threat of having to pay 160 quid to fix something that's not my fault.

I'm just hoping for rain tonight. Fortunately I live in the 2nd wettest
town in Devon.

Gordon

In article <Z5t*dD0-(E-Mail Removed)>,
Theo Markettos <theom+(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>In uk.telecom Gordon Henderson <gordon+(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>> In article <X5t*-m0-(E-Mail Removed)>,
>> Theo Markettos <theom+(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>> >We had one of those... the solution was to ring BT faults from that line so
>> >the call centre operator could hear it down their end and book a visit.
>> >Luckily it remained when the technician came round to see to it (he put us
>> >on another pair, problem solved).
>>
>> I'm sure that would solve my problem.
>
>Assuming it's not your dropwire, of course. Ours goes through a tree:
>poking the wire leaning out the window with a broom had no noticeable effect
>so I was fairly sure the fault wasn't there..

The dropwire is fine - I can see it all the way from my house to the
pole. It's not far as these things go.

>> I've seen them plug their own in the past... The issue I'm sort of
>> scared of is calling them out, having them test it, but by the time
>> they get here the fault will have solved itself - which I know from past
>> experience it will do as soon as it starts to rain.
>
>Yes, I was scared of that too but it wasn't a problem. Tell Faults when you
>phone that it disappears in the rain, so you're covered in case it happens
>to tip it down just before they come, and they can flag it as an
>intermittent fault if they have the ability on their system.
>
>The Faults operator was reasonably helpful... once it was obvious I'd tried
>all the usual stuff they were quite happy to book a visit. The technician
>took one look at the problem and immediately headed outside - there wasn't
>any argument of 'it's your equipment' (we don't have an NTE5 so we can't
>disconnect the extensions anyway).

>> Maybe I'll just wait until they have a free or half-price instll a 2nd
>> line deal going... (And read the small print!)
>
>YMMV, but I think if you make it clear you know what you're on about they
>aren't going to try to pull a 'it's your fault' on you. After all, it
>doesn't rain inside your house. And I don't think many people report
>non-existent faults on their lines just for fun.

Well, I've called faults - he said he could hear some crackles faintly
- I hear them loudly and my ADSL disconnected twice during the call -
however he did a line test (after calling me back on my mobile) which
he said was fine )-:

However he's recorded that it's intermittent and has booked an openreach
engineer to come and check - tomorow morning - so lets hope it doesn't
rain until then - but it's not looking good on that front here!

Oh, and it's "only" £129.99 inc VAT if they decide to charge me. If they
do, it'll be the last thing they charge me for as I'll get another
BT wholesaler to do a new line install for me and migrate my ADSL and
home phone number to VoIP, cancelling my existing BT line.

Gordon

Gordon Henderson wrote:
> This is probably just a frustrated rant...
>
> So here's the issue - and it's been going on for some years now...
>
> We get a period of hot, dry weather and then my ADSL line starts to
> drop-out. A bit of wind, such as today makes it worse.
>
> I've tried everything I feel I can try at my end - 3 different filters,
> 2 different ADSL modem/routers (although both Draytek, but different
> models), going into the master socket, changed the faceplate, and so on.
>
> My line, while under 600 metres from the exchange (a good catapault and I
> could hit it), is marginal an I only just get 8Mb in and 830Kb up - that's
> what I usually get though, but it's marginal and I feel it should be
> much much better. (my neighbours seem rock-solib) Right now the line
> stats on a Draytek 2820 router show:
>
> ADSL Status Mode State Up Speed Down Speed SNR Margin Loop Att.
> G.DMT SHOWTIME 832000 7808000 14 25
>
> That's SNR Margin 14, Loop att. 25, although in the time I've typed
> this, it's dropped twice, snr is now 18, loop 25 and upspeed has dropped
> to 736K.
>
> If I plug a phone in and listen, I hear crackles and hiss.
>
> However, and this is where I think BT will stump me, if I unplug the
> router then it's as quiet as a quiet thing (well, it's quiet to my
> ageing ears, tinnitus not withstanding) When I plug the router back in,
> I can hear the hiss and what I presume is some of the signalling then the
> crackles happen - it's this what I believe will make BT automatically
> say that it's a problem at my end. I do not think I have 4 faulty
> microfilters and 2 faulty routers.
>

all routers/Dslams put significant hiss on the line.

The crackles are something else though.


> I think it's some sort of bad joint/rectification issue on the line from
> my house to the pole or from the pole to the exchange (which I think
> is underground)
>

Agreed. It probably is. Getting BT to accept that and fix it is another
matter though.

> But how do I get BT to come out and test it, and admit there's a
> fault without them charging me £160 quid or whatever it is these days.
> (It would be cheaper for me to install a new line, port the number into
> my VoIP platform and cancel the old one - however, it's a 2-pair drop
> cable into my house, so I doubt it would help)
>
> I'm almost tempted to get a ladder and climb the pole and check the
> terminations myself...
>
> Of-course, it's going to rain later today so my problems will magically
> dissapear as they usually do, so even if I did book an appointment with
> BT, then there's a good chance it'll have gone by the time they turn up,
> and therefore charge me )-:
>

This is the sort of case where a tree branch 'accidentally' falling down
across a line can help.

But be patient. For about three years every few months my car would
fail to start. Generally slamming the rear door fixed it. Last year it
failed to start completely and I had to trailer it in, but at least the
fault was then easy to find. One new fuel pump and its crackin Gromit!

> Gordon

Gordon Henderson wrote:
> In article <Z5t*dD0-(E-Mail Removed)>,
> Theo Markettos <theom+(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>> In uk.telecom Gordon Henderson <gordon+(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>> In article <X5t*-m0-(E-Mail Removed)>,
>>> Theo Markettos <theom+(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>>> We had one of those... the solution was to ring BT faults from that line so
>>>> the call centre operator could hear it down their end and book a visit.
>>>> Luckily it remained when the technician came round to see to it (he put us
>>>> on another pair, problem solved).
>>> I'm sure that would solve my problem.
>> Assuming it's not your dropwire, of course. Ours goes through a tree:
>> poking the wire leaning out the window with a broom had no noticeable effect
>> so I was fairly sure the fault wasn't there..
>
> The dropwire is fine - I can see it all the way from my house to the
> pole. It's not far as these things go.
>
>>> I've seen them plug their own in the past... The issue I'm sort of
>>> scared of is calling them out, having them test it, but by the time
>>> they get here the fault will have solved itself - which I know from past
>>> experience it will do as soon as it starts to rain.
>> Yes, I was scared of that too but it wasn't a problem. Tell Faults when you
>> phone that it disappears in the rain, so you're covered in case it happens
>> to tip it down just before they come, and they can flag it as an
>> intermittent fault if they have the ability on their system.
>>
>> The Faults operator was reasonably helpful... once it was obvious I'd tried
>> all the usual stuff they were quite happy to book a visit. The technician
>> took one look at the problem and immediately headed outside - there wasn't
>> any argument of 'it's your equipment' (we don't have an NTE5 so we can't
>> disconnect the extensions anyway).
>
>>> Maybe I'll just wait until they have a free or half-price instll a 2nd
>>> line deal going... (And read the small print!)
>> YMMV, but I think if you make it clear you know what you're on about they
>> aren't going to try to pull a 'it's your fault' on you. After all, it
>> doesn't rain inside your house. And I don't think many people report
>> non-existent faults on their lines just for fun.
>
> Well, I've called faults - he said he could hear some crackles faintly
> - I hear them loudly and my ADSL disconnected twice during the call -
> however he did a line test (after calling me back on my mobile) which
> he said was fine )-:
>
> However he's recorded that it's intermittent and has booked an openreach
> engineer to come and check - tomorow morning - so lets hope it doesn't
> rain until then - but it's not looking good on that front here!
>
> Oh, and it's "only" £129.99 inc VAT if they decide to charge me. If they
> do, it'll be the last thing they charge me for as I'll get another
> BT wholesaler to do a new line install for me and migrate my ADSL and
> home phone number to VoIP, cancelling my existing BT line.
>

Guess why I went to IDnet.

lower line rental, and PAYG phone, but I use voip for 99% of the calls
anyway.

And they have a decent relationship with openreach, so faults do get fixed.


> Gordon

John wrote:

>
> If noise is only present when the router is plugged in, then no matter how
> unlikely it seems, it _must_ be the filter(s) at fault.

Not so

Any non-linearity in the wires will cause intermodulation products from
the ADSL to fold down inside the audio band. ALL routers/DLSAMS make a
bit of hiss, - ive got two filters in series, and it still happens. Its
also possible for demodulation and mixing to occur from HF leakthrough
the filters - perfectly in spec - to the front end of your PABX or whatever.

Finally, your router and the DSLAM itself may be actually generating via
similar mechanisms, baseband noise. Most of them do.

In article <rIydnb-(E-Mail Removed)>,
Peter Crosland <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>A quite ludicrous suggestion that makes no real sense at all. What is
>required is a systematic approach checking each thing step by step. All
>tests need to be done from the test socket (behind the faceplate) with just
>the modem/router and a phone connected via a top quality filter such as
>those sold by ADSL Nation.

I have been through this in a most systematic way. And it's happened
several times over the past few years - it always happens when it's been
hot and dry for a few days - a bit of breeze makes it worse. (Which is
why I think it's the termination at the pole - the wire comes inside my
house unbroken to the master socket.

These are the faceplates I install:

http://www.solwise.co.uk/images/adsl-nteface-mid.gif

installed a few dozen so-far and I tried all the spares I have in my
own socket with no difference.

> In my experience, good as they may be in other
>respects, the Draytek range to not have particularly good ADSL performance.

My experience of installing a few dozen of them suggests otherwise,
and the old 2600's with the long-line code worked where others simply
wouldn't sync at all.

>By that I mean that the don't sync particularly well and often at a lower
>speed than is achievable. I have also found, top my and other's cost, that
>most modem/routers just cannot handle lines that are noise and intermittent
>like yours is. You really need to involve your ISP as you are their customer
>and it is their responsibility to deal with BT on your behalf. Since you are
>experiencing audible noise on the line it may well be worth you tackling BT
>about the line quality without mentioning broadband at all before you embark
>on the suggestions above. .

I am the ISP - in my capacity as a reseller of another ISP anyways.
(Entanet), and I have been onto them in the past - they've done the BT
test thing and will only suggest calling in BT at a potential cost. I
have avoided contacting them this time, as I'm sure it's not really a
broadband issue but more a line fault issue.

Gordon