Farm scale network links: advice

Slightly off-topic in ucol, I know, but it's a place where all sorts of
geeks hang out...

Right, I (with some fellow conspirators) am buying a farm.

The farm in question is on a ridge, with most of it on the east side of
the ridge, where the buildings are, and part on the west side. The
buildings are more or less in the centre, with the land extending about
250-300 metres in every direction.

I'm thinking that an omnidirectional wifi aerial on the top of the
buildings should cover most of the east side of the ridge, but I don't
know how much power I need to get 300 metres range on an
omnidirectional. To get to a useful place to put a mast on the west
side of the ridge, I'm going to need either to run 200 metres of some
kind of cable, or to have a repeater station on the top of the ridge
that I would need to run power to (or possibly have solar panel and/or
small wind turbine).

Sticking an omnidirectional aerial on the top of the ridge is not
likely to work since the ridge is too steep, and the signal would be
above the level of the rest of the farm. Also, wind speeds over the
ridge can be very high indeed. It might be possible to put two slightly
tilted omni aerials on top of the ridge, one to 'light' the east side,
one to 'light' the west, but finding a place where that would work
effectively would be tricky given the land shapes.

I could run either cat 5 or fibre optic cable along the existing
fence line; I know this doesn't give much protection from mechanical
damage but it would work in the short term. Cat 5 probably isn't going
to go the distance - the longest distance I can find for a reliable
10base100 link on cat 5 is 177 yards, so I probably have to go for
fibre, which is something I've never installed before8ui.

So - what sort of fibre do I buy, and where do I get it? What sort of
tools do I need to terminate it? I see I can get reasonably priced
media converters off ebay (http://goo.gl/MfD3L ) but will these do what
I need? How much power do I put into the omni aerial to get 300 metres
range, and where do I get that aerial (and, if needed, amplifier)? Are
there other, better, solutions I haven't thought of?

--
http://www.journeyman.cc/~simon/ :: PGP public key on home page

;; USER ERROR: replace user and press any key to continue


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In article <20110110234232.709fbd0b@gododdin>,
Simon Brooke <stillyet+(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> I need? How much power do I put into the omni aerial to get 300 metres
> range, and where do I get that aerial (and, if needed, amplifier)? Are
> there other, better, solutions I haven't thought of?

Well, I'm not entirely sure what you are intending to put on your Wi-Fi
network but do remember it is two-way traffic. Whatever power you need to
put into your aerial to get your 300m range, your devices will require the
same power and aerial gain to signal back.

--
Stuart Winsor

Midland RISC OS show - Sat July 9th 2011

On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 09:20:05 +0000 (GMT)
Stuart <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> In article <20110110234232.709fbd0b@gododdin>,
> Simon Brooke <stillyet+(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> > I need? How much power do I put into the omni aerial to get 300
> > metres range, and where do I get that aerial (and, if needed,
> > amplifier)? Are there other, better, solutions I haven't thought of?
>
> Well, I'm not entirely sure what you are intending to put on your
> Wi-Fi network but do remember it is two-way traffic. Whatever power
> you need to put into your aerial to get your 300m range, your devices
> will require the same power and aerial gain to signal back.

That is, indeed, so. I'll need to think about that. Directional
aerials will help, of course, and highly directional wifi aerials are
allegedly easy to construct. Indeed a cluster of directional aerials at
the centre might be better than one omni. Any views, anyone?

--
http://www.journeyman.cc/~simon/ :: PGP public key on home page

;; USER ERROR: replace user and press any key to continue


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Simon Brooke wrote:

> Slightly off-topic in ucol, I know, but it's a place where all sorts
> of geeks hang out...
>
> Right, I (with some fellow conspirators) am buying a farm.
>
> The farm in question is on a ridge, with most of it on the east side
> of the ridge, where the buildings are, and part on the west side. The
> buildings are more or less in the centre, with the land extending
> about 250-300 metres in every direction.
>
> I'm thinking that an omnidirectional wifi aerial on the top of the
> buildings should cover most of the east side of the ridge, but I don't
> know how much power I need to get 300 metres range on an
> omnidirectional. To get to a useful place to put a mast on the west
> side of the ridge, I'm going to need either to run 200 metres of some
> kind of cable, or to have a repeater station on the top of the ridge
> that I would need to run power to (or possibly have solar panel and/or
> small wind turbine).
>
> Sticking an omnidirectional aerial on the top of the ridge is not
> likely to work since the ridge is too steep, and the signal would be
> above the level of the rest of the farm. Also, wind speeds over the
> ridge can be very high indeed. It might be possible to put two
> slightly tilted omni aerials on top of the ridge, one to 'light' the
> east side, one to 'light' the west, but finding a place where that
> would work effectively would be tricky given the land shapes.
>
> I could run either cat 5 or fibre optic cable along the existing
> fence line; I know this doesn't give much protection from mechanical
> damage but it would work in the short term. Cat 5 probably isn't going
> to go the distance - the longest distance I can find for a reliable
> 10base100 link on cat 5 is 177 yards, so I probably have to go for
> fibre, which is something I've never installed before8ui.
>
> So - what sort of fibre do I buy, and where do I get it? What sort of
> tools do I need to terminate it? I see I can get reasonably priced
> media converters off ebay (http://goo.gl/MfD3L ) but will these do
> what I need? How much power do I put into the omni aerial to get 300
> metres range, and where do I get that aerial (and, if needed,
> amplifier)? Are there other, better, solutions I haven't thought of?

Just a thought. Have you considered Powerline technology? If you just
want to connect the odd PC and your electricity supply allows it, that
might be a way of connecting up the more far flung parts of your
empire. I've found it a useful adjunct to wireless, when I have been
unable to get a WiFi signal where I needed it.

--

On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 10:30:49 +0000, Andrew Chapman wrote:

[...]

> Just a thought. Have you considered Powerline technology? If you just
> want to connect the odd PC and your electricity supply allows it, that
> might be a way of connecting up the more far flung parts of your empire.
> I've found it a useful adjunct to wireless, when I have been unable to
> get a WiFi signal where I needed it.

One caveat might be that farms often have 3-phase supplies; you can't
network across phases.

Chris

--
Remove prejudice to reply.

Chris Whelan wrote:

> On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 10:30:49 +0000, Andrew Chapman wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > Just a thought. Have you considered Powerline technology? If you
> > just want to connect the odd PC and your electricity supply allows
> > it, that might be a way of connecting up the more far flung parts
> > of your empire. I've found it a useful adjunct to wireless, when
> > I have been unable to get a WiFi signal where I needed it.
>
> One caveat might be that farms often have 3-phase supplies; you can't
> network across phases.
>
> Chris

Which is exactly why I said if your electricity supply allows it...

--

On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 11:56:02 +0000, Andrew Chapman wrote:

> Chris Whelan wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 10:30:49 +0000, Andrew Chapman wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> > Just a thought. Have you considered Powerline technology? If you
>> > just want to connect the odd PC and your electricity supply allows
>> > it, that might be a way of connecting up the more far flung parts of
>> > your empire. I've found it a useful adjunct to wireless, when I
>> > have been unable to get a WiFi signal where I needed it.
>>
>> One caveat might be that farms often have 3-phase supplies; you can't
>> network across phases.
>>
>> Chris
>
> Which is exactly why I said if your electricity supply allows it...

Yep; would the OP and others have know that?

Chris

--
Remove prejudice to reply.

On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 10:30:49 +0000 (UTC)
"Andrew Chapman" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> Simon Brooke wrote:
>
> > Slightly off-topic in ucol, I know, but it's a place where all sorts
> > of geeks hang out...
> >
> > Right, I (with some fellow conspirators) am buying a farm.
> >
> > The farm in question is on a ridge, with most of it on the east side
> > of the ridge, where the buildings are, and part on the west side.
> > The buildings are more or less in the centre, with the land
> > extending about 250-300 metres in every direction.

Snip...

> > So - what sort of fibre do I buy, and where do I get it? What sort
> > of tools do I need to terminate it? I see I can get reasonably
> > priced media converters off ebay (http://goo.gl/MfD3L ) but will
> > these do what I need? How much power do I put into the omni aerial
> > to get 300 metres range, and where do I get that aerial (and, if
> > needed, amplifier)? Are there other, better, solutions I haven't
> > thought of?
>
> Just a thought. Have you considered Powerline technology? If you
> just want to connect the odd PC and your electricity supply allows
> it, that might be a way of connecting up the more far flung parts of
> your empire. I've found it a useful adjunct to wireless, when I have
> been unable to get a WiFi signal where I needed it.

An excellent suggestion in the general case, but doesn't work for us as
none of the peripheral points currently have, and some will never have,
mains power. When and where we get round to doing the cabling for mains
power then adding data cables on the same poles wouldn't be a big deal
anyway (and yes, we have three phase, so data over powerline is less
easy).

--
http://www.journeyman.cc/~simon/ :: PGP public key on home page

;; USER ERROR: replace user and press any key to continue


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On 1/11/2011 6:36 AM, Chris Whelan wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 11:56:02 +0000, Andrew Chapman wrote:
>
>> Chris Whelan wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 10:30:49 +0000, Andrew Chapman wrote:
>>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>>> Just a thought. Have you considered Powerline technology? If you
>>>> just want to connect the odd PC and your electricity supply allows
>>>> it, that might be a way of connecting up the more far flung parts of
>>>> your empire. I've found it a useful adjunct to wireless, when I
>>>> have been unable to get a WiFi signal where I needed it.
>>>
>>> One caveat might be that farms often have 3-phase supplies; you can't
>>> network across phases.
>>>
>>> Chris
>>
>> Which is exactly why I said if your electricity supply allows it...
>
> Yep; would the OP and others have know that?
>
> Chris
>
Yes you can network over more than one phase if you have the right phase
coupler device.

Here is a link showing a 3-phase coupler and how it would hook up.
http://www.dimonoff.com/produits/view/9

I've not purchased anything from them and have no idea the current cost
but they will allow all three phases to share the same Ethernet provided
the rest of the transceivers are compatible.

I have seen similar devices used at locations in the USA where the
buildings had 2-phase wiring. Once installed the users could pass data
from computers on one phase to the the transceiver attached to the
router on the other phase.

On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 10:27:58 -0600, GlowingBlueMist wrote:

[...]

> Here is a link showing a 3-phase coupler and how it would hook up.
> http://www.dimonoff.com/produits/view/9

That link is to a Canadian company that is still looking for distributors
in Canada; I don't imagine they would sell into the UK, or that it would
be legal to use there devices here.

Solwise say on their website:

"If you have a 3-phase supply, don't expect Powerline networking to work
between phases."

Most references to communication across phase lines appears to refer to
the US. There are always going to be losses with a coupling device, and
the low power signal allowed by the EU can't afford that. Perhaps the
allowed power is higher in other parts of the world?

Chris

--
Remove prejudice to reply.