Extending USB cable with CAT5 cable adapters

I'm wanting to shift a 54G dongle and attached biquad antenna about 25
feet away from the PC.

The options as I see it are to use:

- two USB cables with a powered hub in the middle,

- or USB CAT5 cable extenders to the 54G dongle.

The questions are:

- Which is the best option?

- does the dongle have to be attached to a powered hub at the end of
the CAT5 adapter to supply sufficient current?

- am I likely to get significant signal delay with either of these
setups?

Unfortunately for Jeff L the adapter is a Realtek.

I am however pleased to say that it is the most effective device I've
tried in this really bad location.

It's one of those supposedly high power dongles off Ebay, which
actually is "hi power" - quite amazing performance compared to my
Belkin PCI card and a Belkin dongle I also have.

Just for interest, the signal path goes through a double brick wall,
past a large fridge in the next room, through two more single brick
walls to a Belkin access point on the other side of the house.

Not a bad effort getting 90% signal at 54G, but I have to move the
antenna because I'm getting interference from the next door neighbours
Apple Air Wifi immediately adjacent - even using the biquad and with
aluminium insulation in the wall between us.

So what's the go on the cables :-)

Cheers

Rob

On Fri, 14 Aug 2009 06:44:56 -0700 (PDT), bod43 <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:

>On 14 Aug, 12:19, "me here" <gloaming_ag...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> I'm wanting to shift a 54G dongle and attached biquad antenna about 25
>> feet away from the PC.
>>
>> The options as I see it are to use:
>>
>> - two USB cables with a powered hub in the middle,
>>
>> - or USB CAT5 cable extenders to the 54G dongle.
>
>You can also get "active" extension leads which require
>no seperate power supply. One I looked at
>allows 3 x active leads plus a standard lead at 5metres each.
>So up to 20m or 60 odd feet.

That would have been my suggestion, as well.

Char Jackson wrote:

> On Fri, 14 Aug 2009 06:44:56 -0700 (PDT), bod43 <(E-Mail Removed)>
> wrote:
>
> >On 14 Aug, 12:19, "me here" <gloaming_ag...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> I'm wanting to shift a 54G dongle and attached biquad antenna
> about 25 >> feet away from the PC.
> > >
> >> The options as I see it are to use:
> > >
> >> - two USB cables with a powered hub in the middle,
> > >
> >> - or USB CAT5 cable extenders to the 54G dongle.
> >
> > You can also get "active" extension leads which require
> > no seperate power supply. One I looked at
> > allows 3 x active leads plus a standard lead at 5metres each.
> > So up to 20m or 60 odd feet.
>
> That would have been my suggestion, as well.

Hadn't seen those before.

They certainly look the way to go.

Thanks guys.

Rob

"me here" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>
> I'm wanting to shift a 54G dongle and attached biquad antenna about 25
> feet away from the PC.
>
> The options as I see it are to use:
>
> - two USB cables with a powered hub in the middle,
>
> - or USB CAT5 cable extenders to the 54G dongle.
>
> The questions are:
>
> - Which is the best option?
>
> - does the dongle have to be attached to a powered hub at the end of
> the CAT5 adapter to supply sufficient current?
>
> - am I likely to get significant signal delay with either of these
> setups?
>
> Unfortunately for Jeff L the adapter is a Realtek.
>
> I am however pleased to say that it is the most effective device I've
> tried in this really bad location.
>
> It's one of those supposedly high power dongles off Ebay, which
> actually is "hi power" - quite amazing performance compared to my
> Belkin PCI card and a Belkin dongle I also have.
>
> Rob
I used an active USB extender for my set up at one time and it worked
fine for me. Although now I have about 20 ft of good coax
(can't remember the #) to get into the my boat, because it is easier to
waterproof.
Ok Rob, you got me wondering now, I'm on a boat, using a 15dbi flat
panel antenna receiving a signal 300 ft to 400 ft away. Sometimes the signal
is excellent and other times barely usable. I understand this is a two way
signal,
and I would think the usual bottleneck would be the receive signal strength.
So having a 500mw transmit signal would probably not help the situation.
Is there a way to see whether the transmit or receive signal is the weak
link?
Mike

But this is mostly a guess on my part

amdx wrote:

>
> "me here" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> >
> > I'm wanting to shift a 54G dongle and attached biquad antenna about
> > 25 feet away from the PC.
> >
> > The options as I see it are to use:
> >
> > - two USB cables with a powered hub in the middle,
> >
> > - or USB CAT5 cable extenders to the 54G dongle.
> >
> > The questions are:
> >
> > - Which is the best option?
> >
> > - does the dongle have to be attached to a powered hub at the end of
> > the CAT5 adapter to supply sufficient current?
> >
> > - am I likely to get significant signal delay with either of these
> > setups?
> >
> > Unfortunately for Jeff L the adapter is a Realtek.
> >
> > I am however pleased to say that it is the most effective device
> > I've tried in this really bad location.
> >
> > It's one of those supposedly high power dongles off Ebay, which
> > actually is "hi power" - quite amazing performance compared to my
> > Belkin PCI card and a Belkin dongle I also have.
> >
> > Rob
> I used an active USB extender for my set up at one time and it worked
> fine for me. Although now I have about 20 ft of good coax
> (can't remember the #) to get into the my boat, because it is easier
> to waterproof.
> Ok Rob, you got me wondering now, I'm on a boat, using a 15dbi flat
> panel antenna receiving a signal 300 ft to 400 ft away. Sometimes the
> signal is excellent and other times barely usable. I understand this
> is a two way signal,
> and I would think the usual bottleneck would be the receive signal
> strength. So having a 500mw transmit signal would probably not help
> the situation. Is there a way to see whether the transmit or
> receive signal is the weak link?
> Mike
>
> But this is mostly a guess on my part

My understanding is that antenna gain is bi-directional and signal
strength ties in accordingly.

Check out this pdf document on the subject.

http://www.xirrus.com/pdfs/Tutorial_Range.pdf

Best laymans read I've seen.

There are obviously a number of things that can cause changes to
existing signal strength - which appear to be primarily related to
external interference.

Cheers

Rob

me here wrote:

> amdx wrote:
>
> >
> > "me here" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> > news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> > >
> > > I'm wanting to shift a 54G dongle and attached biquad antenna
> > > about 25 feet away from the PC.
> > >
> > > The options as I see it are to use:
> > >
> > > - two USB cables with a powered hub in the middle,
> > >
> > > - or USB CAT5 cable extenders to the 54G dongle.
> > >
> > > The questions are:
> > >
> > > - Which is the best option?
> > >
> > > - does the dongle have to be attached to a powered hub at the end
> > > of the CAT5 adapter to supply sufficient current?
> > >
> > > - am I likely to get significant signal delay with either of these
> > > setups?
> > >
> > > Unfortunately for Jeff L the adapter is a Realtek.
> > >
> > > I am however pleased to say that it is the most effective device
> > > I've tried in this really bad location.
> > >
> > > It's one of those supposedly high power dongles off Ebay, which
> > > actually is "hi power" - quite amazing performance compared to my
> > > Belkin PCI card and a Belkin dongle I also have.
> > >
> > > Rob
> > I used an active USB extender for my set up at one time and it
> > worked fine for me. Although now I have about 20 ft of good coax
> > (can't remember the #) to get into the my boat, because it is easier
> > to waterproof.
> > Ok Rob, you got me wondering now, I'm on a boat, using a 15dbi
> > flat panel antenna receiving a signal 300 ft to 400 ft away.
> > Sometimes the signal is excellent and other times barely usable. I
> > understand this is a two way signal,
> > and I would think the usual bottleneck would be the receive signal
> > strength. So having a 500mw transmit signal would probably not help
> > the situation. Is there a way to see whether the transmit or
> > receive signal is the weak link?
> > Mike
> >
> > But this is mostly a guess on my part
>
> My understanding is that antenna gain is bi-directional and signal
> strength ties in accordingly.
>
> Check out this pdf document on the subject.
>
> http://www.xirrus.com/pdfs/Tutorial_Range.pdf
>
> Best laymans read I've seen.
>
> There are obviously a number of things that can cause changes to
> existing signal strength - which appear to be primarily related to
> external interference.
>
> Cheers
>
> Rob

Just to elaborate on the previous post.

The difference between the cheap Ebay Realtek adapter and the Belkin
PCI card using the same 12 dbi biquad is a 10 - 15 % improvement in
signal to noise with the Realtek - according to my wifi sniffer chart.

The Realtek driver works OK under XP but its lousy under Ubuntu (Linux)
and the Belkin is much better there = so the driver for the application
makes a big difference.

Also although the S/N is a lot better, I'm not totally convinced that
the stability is as good as the Belkin, even though the signal quality
is shown to be better.

The upshot is that when the system is under load and the Apple Air next
door is being used (the guy is home) you can see the device drop back
to 48 and even 36 G at times.

Move the antenna away from the suspected problem area and the issue
goes away - back to 54G, so it's definitely interference in my case.

Cheers again

Rob

"me here" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:4a874386$(E-Mail Removed)...
> amdx wrote:
>
>>
>> "me here" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>> news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>> >
>> > I'm wanting to shift a 54G dongle and attached biquad antenna about
>> > 25 feet away from the PC.
>> >
>> > The options as I see it are to use:
>> >
>> > - two USB cables with a powered hub in the middle,
>> >
>> > - or USB CAT5 cable extenders to the 54G dongle.
>> >
>> > The questions are:
>> >
>> > - Which is the best option?
>> >
>> > - does the dongle have to be attached to a powered hub at the end of
>> > the CAT5 adapter to supply sufficient current?
>> >
>> > - am I likely to get significant signal delay with either of these
>> > setups?
>> >
>> > Unfortunately for Jeff L the adapter is a Realtek.
>> >
>> > I am however pleased to say that it is the most effective device
>> > I've tried in this really bad location.
>> >
>> > It's one of those supposedly high power dongles off Ebay, which
>> > actually is "hi power" - quite amazing performance compared to my
>> > Belkin PCI card and a Belkin dongle I also have.
>> >
>> > Rob
>> I used an active USB extender for my set up at one time and it worked
>> fine for me. Although now I have about 20 ft of good coax
>> (can't remember the #) to get into the my boat, because it is easier
>> to waterproof.
>> Ok Rob, you got me wondering now, I'm on a boat, using a 15dbi flat
>> panel antenna receiving a signal 300 ft to 400 ft away. Sometimes the
>> signal is excellent and other times barely usable. I understand this
>> is a two way signal,
>> and I would think the usual bottleneck would be the receive signal
>> strength. So having a 500mw transmit signal would probably not help
>> the situation. Is there a way to see whether the transmit or
>> receive signal is the weak link?
>> Mike
>>
>> But this is mostly a guess on my part
>
> My understanding is that antenna gain is bi-directional and signal
> strength ties in accordingly.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >

I agree about reciprocity of the antenna, my comment was about the Realtek
with it boast of 500mw output.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
> Check out this pdf document on the subject.
>
> http://www.xirrus.com/pdfs/Tutorial_Range.pdf

I'll check it out.
Being on a boat is a challenge, If you have a very high gain antenna
(very directional) you can get a strong signal but when the wind blows the
boat shifts and misses the target. I also have a tidal range of 2 ft per day
and
as much as 3.5 ft over the year.
Mike

"bod43" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:c8038891-6fdb-428e-9a57-(E-Mail Removed)...
On 15 Aug, 21:59, "amdx" <a...@knology.net> wrote:
> "me here" <gloaming_ag...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>
>
>
> > I'm wanting to shift a 54G dongle and attached biquad antenna about 25
> > feet away from the PC.
>
> > The options as I see it are to use:
>
> > - two USB cables with a powered hub in the middle,
>
> > - or USB CAT5 cable extenders to the 54G dongle.
>
> > The questions are:
>
> > - Which is the best option?
>
> > - does the dongle have to be attached to a powered hub at the end of
> > the CAT5 adapter to supply sufficient current?
>
> > - am I likely to get significant signal delay with either of these
> > setups?
>
> > Unfortunately for Jeff L the adapter is a Realtek.
>
> > I am however pleased to say that it is the most effective device I've
> > tried in this really bad location.
>
> > It's one of those supposedly high power dongles off Ebay, which
> > actually is "hi power" - quite amazing performance compared to my
> > Belkin PCI card and a Belkin dongle I also have.
>
> > Rob
>
> I used an active USB extender for my set up at one time and it worked
> fine for me. Although now I have about 20 ft of good coax
> (can't remember the #) to get into the my boat, because it is easier to
> waterproof.

>My understanding is that there is no such thing as good coax.
>Well of course some is better that others, however it *all*
>has significant losses. A USB extension cable has exactly
>zero loss in all cases.

I'm guessing I used 9913 with 7.5 db loss per 100 ft.
With 20 ft of cable I calculate 1.5 db loss, throw in maybe another
1.5db loss for the connectors and we get 3 db loss. Ya that's a loss.
Some may call that significant, I'll call it moderate loss.
If I get energetic I'll go back to the USB wifi adapter connected
to the antenna with a active USB extender into the boat. and see
if it helps.
Mike

"rebel" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> On Sun, 16 Aug 2009 06:52:18 -0500, "amdx" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>> Being on a boat is a challenge, If you have a very high gain antenna
>>(very directional) you can get a strong signal but when the wind blows the
>>boat shifts and misses the target. I also have a tidal range of 2 ft per
>>day
>>and as much as 3.5 ft over the year.
>
> Mike, you would appreciate that an over-water path - or any path at low
> angles
> over a reflective surface - is going to present all sorts of signal
> cancellation
> possibilities. (In microwave path engineering, the reflections off
> seemingly
> innocuous stuff like cereal crops is plenty high enough to cause a
> problem).
> While polarisation selection can minimise the problem - and circular or
> elliptical can help greatly - once you get onto high gain (aka
> directional)
> antennae you need to be particularly attentive to this. The microwave
> point-to-point solutions (space/frequency diversity) are a little
> difficult to
> engineer into domestic WiFi :-(
>
> As a quick check, while you are monitoring signal strength on your
> coax-fed
> antenna try changing the positioning - height, polarisation etc - and see
> what
> effect that shows. Also try placing a reflective horizontal surface
> several
> inches below the expected signal path and play with that a bit.

Right now my software says I have a -60dbm signal strength, this is plenty
of signal
for my surfing. It does bounce a little from -58dbm to -68dbm. But
mostly -60dbm.
It also says my link speed is TX 54Mbps RX 48Mbps. This is all Good.
I've using this for about two years a most of the time it is fine, just on a
few days here and
there I have trouble.
My link is mostly across a concrete parking lot.
Mike

amdx wrote:
> "bod43" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:c8038891-6fdb-428e-9a57-(E-Mail Removed)...
> On 15 Aug, 21:59, "amdx" <a...@knology.net> wrote:
>> "me here" <gloaming_ag...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>>
>>
>>
>>> I'm wanting to shift a 54G dongle and attached biquad antenna about 25
>>> feet away from the PC.
>>> The options as I see it are to use:
>>> - two USB cables with a powered hub in the middle,
>>> - or USB CAT5 cable extenders to the 54G dongle.
>>> The questions are:
>>> - Which is the best option?
>>> - does the dongle have to be attached to a powered hub at the end of
>>> the CAT5 adapter to supply sufficient current?
>>> - am I likely to get significant signal delay with either of these
>>> setups?
>>> Unfortunately for Jeff L the adapter is a Realtek.
>>> I am however pleased to say that it is the most effective device I've
>>> tried in this really bad location.
>>> It's one of those supposedly high power dongles off Ebay, which
>>> actually is "hi power" - quite amazing performance compared to my
>>> Belkin PCI card and a Belkin dongle I also have.
>>> Rob
>> I used an active USB extender for my set up at one time and it worked
>> fine for me. Although now I have about 20 ft of good coax
>> (can't remember the #) to get into the my boat, because it is easier to
>> waterproof.
>
>> My understanding is that there is no such thing as good coax.
>> Well of course some is better that others, however it *all*
>> has significant losses. A USB extension cable has exactly
>> zero loss in all cases.
>
It's my understanding usb cables do have length limitations maxing out
at around 5 metres before the beginnings or significant loss so you
might need either a repeater and a quick google ?

> I'm guessing I used 9913 with 7.5 db loss per 100 ft.
> With 20 ft of cable I calculate 1.5 db loss, throw in maybe another
> 1.5db loss for the connectors and we get 3 db loss. Ya that's a loss.
> Some may call that significant, I'll call it moderate loss.
> If I get energetic I'll go back to the USB wifi adapter connected
> to the antenna with a active USB extender into the boat. and see
> if it helps.
> Mike
>
>
>


--
"The problem with Australia is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be
a capital punishment for stupidity,
but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let
the problem solve itself?"