extending the range of 802.11g

I'm playing around with the idea of setting up a neighborhood wan using
802.11g (a free alternative to the Internet). The problem is 802.11g is
limited to about 300 feet.

What if everyone in my neighborhood had their own 802.11g router? Would it
be possible to somehow link them all together and create one giant network?
If so, would it be possible to roam within this network?

How big could such a network be? Could it cover an entire city? Multiple
cities?

Has this been tried before?

Your options are limited, Bill.

Do a google search on this group and you will find a lot of information
about extending the range of of a wireless system.

Directional outdoor antennas at both ends could work for you and your friend
and might be the simplest way.
Access point at your house ... eithernet bridge at his.

Willam Lee


"Bootstrap Bill" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:juVne.16111$qJ3.11105@trnddc05...
> I'm playing around with the idea of setting up a neighborhood wan using
> 802.11g (a free alternative to the Internet). The problem is 802.11g is
> limited to about 300 feet.
>
> What if everyone in my neighborhood had their own 802.11g router? Would it
> be possible to somehow link them all together and create one giant
> network? If so, would it be possible to roam within this network?
>
> How big could such a network be? Could it cover an entire city? Multiple
> cities?
>
> Has this been tried before?

"Bootstrap Bill" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>I'm playing around with the idea of setting up a neighborhood wan using
>802.11g (a free alternative to the Internet). The problem is 802.11g is
>limited to about 300 feet.

More like 300 yards, but that doesn't really change your
problem. Do note that with high gain directional antennas
a line of sight distance of a few miles can be done too.

>What if everyone in my neighborhood had their own 802.11g router?

Well, you'd need 1 router and many clients, for each area
covered by a router. That area would vary greatly, as 802.11g
is a 2400MHz, and it simply does *not* go around corners or
through trees, or anything else. If you can see it, it'll go.

Hence an Access Point sitting on a 300 foot tower located on the
highest ground around... will cover a huge area. But an Access
Point in your basement might have trouble covering your second
story rooms. And every possibility between those will be
encountered.

The answer to that, is simply add more units configured as
Access Points...

>Would it
>be possible to somehow link them all together and create one giant network?

Sure. All it takes is money.

>If so, would it be possible to roam within this network?

Sure, with lots of money!

>How big could such a network be? Could it cover an entire city? Multiple
>cities?
>
>Has this been tried before?

That's what The Internet is. You're 2-3 decades late to get in
on the ground floor; but I gotta admit you have a *big*
imagination!

There are commercial companies providing ISP service using
wireless with coverage for entire cities. That takes some
serious investment in engineering and equipment.

A small network around a neighborhood could be done for a few
hundreds of bucks. Some of the more popular 802.11g radios can
be used as Access Points, Clients, Routers, Bridges, Point to
Point links, and probably something I'm not remembering.
Basically one model of that type (for example a Linksys WRT54G)
could be used to cover a large area by using many units. You
would need one location with access to the Interent. Then you
need however many locations for Access Point units as required
to provide coverage to everyone. Then you need pairs of units
to work as Point-to-Point links to connect each of the Access
Points to the location with the Internet connection.

At less than $80 each for the radios, you can engineer yourself
a network that only a few years ago would have cost hundreds of
thousands, or even millions, and do it for several hundreds of
bucks.

--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) (E-Mail Removed)

Hi Floyd,


"Floyd L. Davidson" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> Hence an Access Point sitting on a 300 foot tower located on the
> highest ground around... will cover a huge area.

How big of an area would a wireless G router mounted on a 300 foot tower
cover?

> The answer to that, is simply add more units configured as
> Access Points...

Off the shelf wireless G routers?

>
>>Would it
>>be possible to somehow link them all together and create one giant
>>network?
>
> Sure. All it takes is money.
>
>>If so, would it be possible to roam within this network?
>
> Sure, with lots of money!

A wireless G router costs less than $100. Each user would buy his/her own.

>>How big could such a network be? Could it cover an entire city? Multiple
>>cities?
>>
>>Has this been tried before?
>
> That's what The Internet is. You're 2-3 decades late to get in
> on the ground floor; but I gotta admit you have a *big*
> imagination!
>

My goal is to create a city wide free alternative to the internet. Free
meaning no connect fees. Each user would be required to buy his/her own
router.Eventually it might actually connect to the Internet, but for now I'd
be happy with a large intranet.

It would be a hobbyist project. Anyone could get in for the price of the
required hardware.

Is this doable? Could it be done at prices that hobbyists would be willing
to pay?

"Will-Lee-Cue" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:SeYne.35955$(E-Mail Removed)...
> Your options are limited, Bill.
>
> Do a google search on this group and you will find a lot of information
> about extending the range of of a wireless system.
>
> Directional outdoor antennas at both ends could work for you and your
> friend and might be the simplest way.
> Access point at your house ... eithernet bridge at his.
>
> Willam Lee
>
>
Hi William,

What if I want my whole neighborhood to participate? Let's say that just
about everyone has their own 802.11g router (probably mounted on their
roof). Can they somehow form a large network? Would I need more hardware
than just the roiuters?

Once set up, would it be possible to roam around the neighborhood with a
laptop?

Actually, Bill, I think you are chasing a dream.
(some of our best inventions were thought up by dreamers)

If you are planning to hook up the city to the internet for free what
connection are you going to use?
Are you going to lease a T1 connection to supply the internet service to
your network?
Dont think of using the cable company until you talk to them first.
They might have some ideas of their own about that.

Getting a signal out to cover a large area may be possable with a tall
antenna and a few watts of power but the person at the other end must use
enough power to get back to the your access point.
Inceasing the RF power would certinaly bring you under the control of the
F.C.C. and no doubt require a license of some sort.

From what you have posted I think you need to read up more on wireless
networks and how they work.
Placing a wireless router on every rooftop is not a workable option.
Even if you placed a wireless access point at every intersection in the city
and tied them all togather to a central location I doubt it would work like
you would want it to.


William Lee


"Bootstrap Bill" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:r91oe.78$KQ2.20@trnddc08...
>
> "Will-Lee-Cue" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:SeYne.35955$(E-Mail Removed)...
>> Your options are limited, Bill.
>>
>> Do a google search on this group and you will find a lot of information
>> about extending the range of of a wireless system.
>>
>> Directional outdoor antennas at both ends could work for you and your
>> friend and might be the simplest way.
>> Access point at your house ... eithernet bridge at his.
>>
>> Willam Lee
>>
>>
> Hi William,
>
> What if I want my whole neighborhood to participate? Let's say that just
> about everyone has their own 802.11g router (probably mounted on their
> roof). Can they somehow form a large network? Would I need more hardware
> than just the roiuters?
>
> Once set up, would it be possible to roam around the neighborhood with a
> laptop?
>
>
>
>
>

Visit this site ( all stoof for Boosting wireless and more )

http://www.hyperlinktech.com/web/wireless_booster.php


On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 21:28:28 GMT, "Will-Lee-Cue" <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:

>Actually, Bill, I think you are chasing a dream.
>(some of our best inventions were thought up by dreamers)
>
>If you are planning to hook up the city to the internet for free what
>connection are you going to use?
>Are you going to lease a T1 connection to supply the internet service to
>your network?
>Dont think of using the cable company until you talk to them first.
>They might have some ideas of their own about that.
>
>Getting a signal out to cover a large area may be possable with a tall
>antenna and a few watts of power but the person at the other end must use
>enough power to get back to the your access point.
>Inceasing the RF power would certinaly bring you under the control of the
>F.C.C. and no doubt require a license of some sort.
>
>From what you have posted I think you need to read up more on wireless
>networks and how they work.
>Placing a wireless router on every rooftop is not a workable option.
>Even if you placed a wireless access point at every intersection in the city
>and tied them all togather to a central location I doubt it would work like
>you would want it to.
>
>
>William Lee
>
>
>"Bootstrap Bill" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>news:r91oe.78$KQ2.20@trnddc08...
>>
>> "Will-Lee-Cue" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>> news:SeYne.35955$(E-Mail Removed)...
>>> Your options are limited, Bill.
>>>
>>> Do a google search on this group and you will find a lot of information
>>> about extending the range of of a wireless system.
>>>
>>> Directional outdoor antennas at both ends could work for you and your
>>> friend and might be the simplest way.
>>> Access point at your house ... eithernet bridge at his.
>>>
>>> Willam Lee
>>>
>>>
>> Hi William,
>>
>> What if I want my whole neighborhood to participate? Let's say that just
>> about everyone has their own 802.11g router (probably mounted on their
>> roof). Can they somehow form a large network? Would I need more hardware
>> than just the roiuters?
>>
>> Once set up, would it be possible to roam around the neighborhood with a
>> laptop?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 18:05:09 -0400, yoplait <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>Visit this site ( all stoof for Boosting wireless and more )
>http://www.hyperlinktech.com/web/wireless_booster.php

Dumb idea. Putting a power amplifier on an access point creates an
"alligator". That's an animal with a big mouth and small ears. It
can talk (and interfere) at a much larger range than it can hear.
Tropos Networks 1watt mesh network radios are a good example of an
alligator. The problem is that the amplifier doesn't really improve
the receiver sensitivity. If the access point is listening to a bunch
of low power laptop transmitters, the range will be no more with 1
watts belching from the access point, as with a power level equal to
the 35mw laptops, so the range will be symmetrical. In my never
humble opinion, power amplifiers are a great way to create
interference and nothing else.


--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831.336.2558 voice http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
# (E-Mail Removed)
# (E-Mail Removed) AE6KS

On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 09:34:07 GMT, "Bootstrap Bill"
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>What if everyone in my neighborhood had their own 802.11g router? Would it
>be possible to somehow link them all together and create one giant network?
>If so, would it be possible to roam within this network?

Yep. There are SBC (single board computahs) available that are
designed for building "mesh networks". The basic idea is that each
"node" on the network is also a repeater. Eventually, the packets
arrive at the router that connects into the internet. This saves the
cost of having each node have its own connection back to the internet.
The problem is that it's a spectrum hog, suffers from bottleneck
issues, and relys heavily on a supremely complex routing algorithm.
Performance also sucks because each simplex node (that can only
transmit or receive one at time) cut the available bandwidth in half.

>How big could such a network be? Could it cover an entire city? Multiple
>cities?

The problem is that mesh networks do not scale very well at each
extreme. If there are a insufficiently small number of nodes, then
traffic may hit a dead end or go nowhere. If there are too many
nodes, then the bulk of the air time will be spent forwarding packets
in circles that eventually arrive, but rather slowly. There will also
be far too many collisions. Nodes with two or possibly three radios
that can do full duplex are a BIG improvement, but cost more.

Actually radios and infrastructer are only a small part of the
problem. Managing the system, maintenance, security, customer
support, enforcement, billing, interference mitigation, aluminium hat
RF exposure nuts, and the inevitable government "assistance", will all
be needed. Hardware also gets obsolete fast, so plan on replacing
literally everything every 5 years or so.

>Has this been tried before?

Yep, sorta. Metricom, Rooftop Networks (Nokia), and a bunch of
others. Horror stories and why they bombed if you want details.

http://www.muniwireless.com
http://www.tropos.com
http://pdos.csail.mit.edu/roofnet/design/
http://www.meshdynamics.com
http://www.firetide.com
http://www.meshnetworks.com (Motorola)
Plenty of others.

So much for the technical and on to the political. I'm the chair
personality, keeper of the faith, and bill collector for our
neighborhood association, road committee, defunct cable co-op, and
fiber/wireless network. In the past 30+ years I've lived in the
neighborhood, I've had to deal with all manner of neighborhood
cooperative efforts. Most fail. I would rather deal with the
government bureaucracy from hell than with some of the stupidity I've
encountered dealing with the neighbors and the fiber/wireless system.
I've literally paid for almost all the hardware myself and they treat
it like I run a public utility. If you value your sanity, I strongly
suggest you develop a paying business model and forget about being
nice. Otherwise, I hope you enjoy getting phone calls at 2AM asking
if the internet is up.



--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831.336.2558 voice http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
# (E-Mail Removed)
# (E-Mail Removed) AE6KS

"Bootstrap Bill" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in
news:juVne.16111$qJ3.11105@trnddc05:

> I'm playing around with the idea of setting up a neighborhood wan
> using 802.11g (a free alternative to the Internet). The problem is
> 802.11g is limited to about 300 feet.
>
> What if everyone in my neighborhood had their own 802.11g router?
> Would it be possible to somehow link them all together and create
> one giant network? If so, would it be possible to roam within this
> network?

On a smaller scale to your vision, have a look at this:
<http://www.daszeltonline.de/wlan/>

If your German is not too good, look at the diagram and photos.

It's relatively easy to set up point-to-multipoint bridges like this.
They do not suffer from the same complexities as mesh networks, but
there is of course a bandwidth hit since the devices are single radio
and cannot receive and transmit concurrently.

Hope this helps

--

Richard Perkin
To email me, change the AT in the address below
richard.perkinATmyrealbox.com

It's is not, it isn't ain't, and it's it's, not its, if you mean it
is. If you don't, it's its. Then too, it's hers. It isn't her's.
It isn't our's either. It's ours, and likewise yours and theirs.
-- Oxford University Press, Edpress News