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Distribute wireless from a moving truck convoy

 
 
djxchus@gmail.com
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      02-16-2006, 08:49 PM
As suggested by another member I'll repost this as a separate topic. I
need to setup an Access Point on one of the trailers that is pulled by
one of the trucks of our convoy. Our convoy is made up of 6 trucks. We
have a Satellite Internet connection and we need to create an AP so
that all the 6 trucks would have internet connection. Is there any way
I could setup the AP with a router an amplifier and antenna? I'm
assuming the range has to be maybe like half a mile. Another member
suggested that the trucks would act as reflectors of the signal. Any
suggestion as how to solve this issue is greatly appreciated.

 
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William P.N. Smith
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      02-17-2006, 12:03 AM
(E-Mail Removed) wrote:
>need to setup an Access Point on one of the trailers that is pulled by
>one of the trucks of our convoy.


Zeroth question, do you know for sure your Satellite Internet
connection works while moving?

[This is going to be a real nightmare, IMHO...]
 
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Rico
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      02-17-2006, 12:57 PM
In article <(E-Mail Removed). com>, (E-Mail Removed) wrote:
>As suggested by another member I'll repost this as a separate topic. I
>need to setup an Access Point on one of the trailers that is pulled by
>one of the trucks of our convoy. Our convoy is made up of 6 trucks. We
>have a Satellite Internet connection and we need to create an AP so
>that all the 6 trucks would have internet connection. Is there any way
>I could setup the AP with a router an amplifier and antenna? I'm
>assuming the range has to be maybe like half a mile. Another member
>suggested that the trucks would act as reflectors of the signal. Any
>suggestion as how to solve this issue is greatly appreciated.
>


A half mile in a moving vehicle could be a problem. Given this sounds like
budget is not excessively an issue, one could experiment. A consumer grade
AP will only cost about $70 or less, external antenna about that much again
maybe a bit less. If you can get it to work with say a couple of trucks say
one on front and back of the truck with the AP, then you could relay down
the lenght of the trucks (a couple of bridges).
How do you plan to make the satellite feed work while moving? That IMO
would be the big problem, the uplink.

fundamentalism, fundamentally wrong.
 
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Alun Harford
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      02-17-2006, 01:27 PM
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed) ups.com...
> As suggested by another member I'll repost this as a separate topic. I
> need to setup an Access Point on one of the trailers that is pulled by
> one of the trucks of our convoy. Our convoy is made up of 6 trucks. We
> have a Satellite Internet connection and we need to create an AP so
> that all the 6 trucks would have internet connection. Is there any way
> I could setup the AP with a router an amplifier and antenna? I'm
> assuming the range has to be maybe like half a mile. Another member
> suggested that the trucks would act as reflectors of the signal. Any
> suggestion as how to solve this issue is greatly appreciated.


How fast do you need it to be?
A few VHF modems would make it very easy to set it up, but only give you
2400bps or so (maybe more these days).
How much bandwidth does a truck need? :-P
A fast sat. connection that keeps going while your moving is serious kit if
you're trying to get a high bitrate, so I'm guessing 2400bps isn't going to
be the bottleneck.

Alun Harford


 
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Jeff Liebermann
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      02-17-2006, 04:56 PM
(E-Mail Removed) hath wroth:

>As suggested by another member I'll repost this as a separate topic. I
>need to setup an Access Point on one of the trailers that is pulled by
>one of the trucks of our convoy. Our convoy is made up of 6 trucks. We
>have a Satellite Internet connection and we need to create an AP so
>that all the 6 trucks would have internet connection.


Are these trucks moving when communications is required? Maintaining
a satellite connection is difficult while moving. I've seen it done
on a rocking boat with a gyro stabilized platform, but I don't know
about vehicles that go under bridges or have the sky blocked by
buildings, trees, etc.

What manner of bandwidth do you need? You can trade range for
bandwidth to some extent. As others mentioned, there are low speed
wireless modem devices that might be more suitable.

>Is there any way
>I could setup the AP with a router an amplifier and antenna?


I don't like amplifiers unless both ends of a link are amplified.
Putting an amplifier at one end gives you fabulous transmit range, but
your receiver can't hear the reply. All it does is create a jammer
with little improvement in communications range.

>I'm
>assuming the range has to be maybe like half a mile.


Half a mile will probably require directional antennas on the trucks.
These cannot be easily aimed while moving. If your convoy is moving,
and you're using directional antennas (typical gain about 5dBi), then
you'll be limited to about 300ft radius range.

This may not be all that bad because you can possibly build some type
of mobile mesh repeater system. Like amplifiers, I have a bad
attitude about mesh systems and very little experience. However, this
might be a good use for one. If you could keep the distance between
trucks to about 300ft, you might be able to maintain end to end
communications. I don't think it will be very fast as each hop cuts
the maximum bandwidth in half. That will be fine for perhaps email
and light surfing, but if you're planning on streaming video, forget
it.

>Another member
>suggested that the trucks would act as reflectors of the signal.


I didn't see that posting but I don't think that will work. Passive
repeaters, passive reflectors, and periscope antennas are large and
inefficient.

>Any
>suggestion as how to solve this issue is greatly appreciated.


Nope. I gotta know what manner and quantity of data you're trying to
move, whether the convoy is moving, whether there are any installation
issues, approximate budget, and whether there are any environmental or
topographical issues.

--
Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
 
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djxchus@gmail.com
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      02-24-2006, 07:24 PM
Thanks for all your replies. Things I should mention, first my boss
told me he would have satellite internet connection available to us but
that he need it a way to distribute the signal so that we could all
have internet at each truck, I dont know if it works while moving I
guess I should clarify that to him, right now we have a couple of cell
phone connections and they work while moving so I guess he assumes is
the same for the satellite connection.

Also I should mention we are 90% of the time on the highway, I work for
the Hurricane Research at UF and we chase hurricanes on the east coast
so we are almost all the time on open exposure terrain.

We use the internet to get real time weather data mostly. It would be
great if we could use it moving, but if not possible then at least
distribute the signal when we are setting up equipment.

 
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Jeff Liebermann
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      02-24-2006, 11:26 PM
(E-Mail Removed) hath wroth:

>Thanks for all your replies. Things I should mention, first my boss
>told me he would have satellite internet connection available to us but
>that he need it a way to distribute the signal so that we could all
>have internet at each truck, I dont know if it works while moving I
>guess I should clarify that to him, right now we have a couple of cell
>phone connections and they work while moving so I guess he assumes is
>the same for the satellite connection.


Well, this is a two part problem. Part one is how to maintain a
satellite internet connection (I'll assume Direcway) while moving.
Part two is how to maintain a wireless connection to the other trucks
while moving at the same time.

As far as I can tell, you're doing it all wrong. For the internet
connection while moving, you will probably do better with cellular
wireless using EV-DO or HSDPA. You can get about 600Kbits/sec average
download which should be sufficient. Upload is about 300Kbits/sec
which is FAR better than the 100Kbits/sec you'll get with a satellite
connection. (Direcway claims up to 1Mbit/sec but that's only in the
middle of the night with a perfect connection). My guess(tm) is that
you'll be uploading quite a bit of collected data to wherever and
therefore upload speed is critical. Satellite just doesn't do well
with upload.

There are other satellite data services that will also work. However,
the real question is how much data are you going to up/down load and
how often? Many of the marine satellite data service will easily
handle a moving vehicle, but are rather limited on traffic size.

Unless you need to move data between the various trucks, it would
probably make sense to just give each truck an EV-DO cell phone and
forget about the wireless interconnection.

Part two of the puzzle is tricky and expensive. You can put high gain
omnidirectional antennas on the roof of each truck, but any difference
in vertical elevation will cause a problem. Wi-Fi will work while
moving but is seriously affected by reflections, multipath,
interference, and other wi-fi systems. It may be made to work, but I
question on how reliable it will be.

Methinks the right answer is to use 900Mhz data. The speeds are
slower than 2.4GHz 802.11g, but are a fair match to what can be
commonly done with satellite or cell phone internet. I suggest you
look at the offerings of:
http://www.avalanwireless.com
http://www.waverider.com
http://www.freewave.com
Most of these transmit at about 1watt. The higher power, lower
frequency, and slower data rates, translate into longer range. The
antennas are less critical and there is very little interference.

>Also I should mention we are 90% of the time on the highway, I work for
>the Hurricane Research at UF and we chase hurricanes on the east coast
>so we are almost all the time on open exposure terrain.


How much data do you send back and forth? How often? That makes a
big difference in the selection of appropriate technology.

>We use the internet to get real time weather data mostly.


What's your interpretation of "real time"? Does it mean that you have
equipment that has to synchronize with some type of raw date
collector? That will be difficult with the typical 700msec satellite
latency.

>It would be
>great if we could use it moving, but if not possible then at least
>distribute the signal when we are setting up equipment.


Do you have time to point an antenna on each truck to the central
truck carrying the satellite dish? Can you guarantee line of sight at
all times between each truck and the central truck? If so,
directional antennas on each truck might be an option. However, I
suspect you're in a rush and don't have time to tinker with
directional antennas. That means onmis which which might have
radiation angle and gain problems.

--
Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
 
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Jeff Liebermann
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      02-25-2006, 12:14 AM
Jeff Liebermann <(E-Mail Removed)> hath wroth:

>Well, this is a two part problem. Part one is how to maintain a
>satellite internet connection (I'll assume Direcway) while moving.


These guys make the Speedray 3000 satellite internet antenna system
that allegedly works while moving:
http://www.raysat.com
http://www.raysat.com/Shopping/Categ...CategoryID=191
Google dredges up two prices, $3,500 and $7,000 list. No clue which
is correct. Hmmm... that's more than my SUV is worth.




--
Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
 
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