Currently continuous loss of ADSL broadband synchronisation - views?

Hi Guys, I was wondering if the collective experience of the group can
advise me?

I should apologise for the length of this screed, but for reasons of
diagnosis I feel I need to give the full story so far.

I have 512 Kbps ADSL from Demon, and use a Speedtouch 510 Router with 4
ethernet ports to connect 4 PCs. This acts as my DHCP server for the
local LAN. Also, whether this is relevant (I think not), the OSs are
1xWin98, 2xWin2K and 1xWin XP SP2.

I do not think the local rural exchange DSLAM has been upgraded to above
512 Kbps yet.

The telephone is the only outlet (master) on this line, and has a
Speedtouch Micro Filter in the telephone "plug in". The router is
plugged in to the Micro Filter at the right point, and a telephone/fax
is connected to the telephone point of the Micro Filter. This set up has
not changed between the time I had good ADSL and this last week's
problems.

The last fact, I think, is my telephone is far from the exchange. About
8 Km, when the BT Engineer number - 017070 - gave the "clear down and
ring back" menu option.

I have been with Demon since Christmas 1994/5, and went to 512 ADSL
February this year. Because of the distance my Router reported stats
typically showing the line attenuation and Noise Margin (SNR?) to be
high and low. When I did check it typically reported -

DSL Flavour = ADSL over POTS
Reserved Bandwidth (kbit/s) up/down = 288 / 576
Uptime = 00:00:58
kBytes Tx/Rx = 5 / 2

Properties
Output Power (dBm) up/down = 10.5 / 14.5
Attenuation (dB) up/down = 31.5 / 60.0
Noise Margin (dB) up/down = 18.0 / 12.0
Vendor Id (local/remote) = ALCB / TSTC

What in particular I noted was the poor Noise Margin, which seemed to be
holding a steady 12 - 14 dB down, when ADSL connections were stable.

However, what was most important for me was the ADSL service seemed to
be rock steady from it's February launch until Sunday last week (week
ago today).

I should explain I work from home for my company most of the time (using
a VPN tunnel and Remote Desktop). That is except for those times when I
need to drive and visit clients.

During all this time, when I have been present, I can count on the
fingers of 1 hand the number of times I have seen the router "broadband
synchronisation on" light showing yellow instead of green. When this
happened, I interpreted this to be that the router is struggling to
connect/synchronise to the single DSLAM (we have 1) at the local rural
exchange when it flashes from green-to-yellow and back.

Last Monday afternoon, the 19th December (working day), about 2.30 pm,
my ADSL connection lost synchronisation on a continuous basis up until
gone midnight. That is the router "power on" and "LAN" lights showed
green at all times. But the "broadband synchronisation" light flashed,
mainly from green-to-yellow and back. However, it occasionally flashed
yellow-to-black and then back to yellow, before then waltzing to the
yellow-to-green, etc. During the Monday morning I had connection to the
VPN tunnel for about 5 hours, so things had been working OK all that
morning.

At the time (19th Dec) I raised my company IT Help Desk, and they could
see other "Remote Users" connected via their VPN and Remote Desktops.
So, this eliminated my company connection being the cause of the
problem. I also found I could not use IE or other programmes connecting
to the internet, proving there was a problem and it seemed to be local.

I rang the Demon Help Desk and used the "Demon Status Line" which
indicated all was OK. I also confirmed this with the Help Desk staff
member. So, Demon seemed to not be at fault. The system fault was down
to the synchronisation between my router and the local rural exchange.

As part of my "diagnosis and solving" activity I switched off power to
the router and rebooted several times. No change or improvement.

The same happened again during Tuesday (20th Dec), in that I had nearly
6 hours using the VPN tunnel during the morning. Then between 3.00 pm
(after lunch on a working day, with few people at home) and midnight
synchronisation was horrendous (intermittent in the extreme).

At this point I contacted Demon's Help Desk and complained about the
ADSL service. They agreed to carry out a line test (what is this?), and
I should ring back about 30 minutes later. When I rang they confirmed
the line test had shown something, but I did not ask for specifics. We
then completed a complaints form (or that was my impression) for Demon
to get BT to do something. I believe this will include sending an
engineer.

Things seemed OK all Wednesday (21st), but repeated again during the
afternoon of Thursday (22nd). What my connections was like on Friday the
23rd I cannot say, I was out most of the day.

Saturday (24th) the connection seemed OK in the morning, when I looked,
and bad in the afternoon. Again I contacted Demon's Help Desk to
complain, and log the continuation of this problem.

Today (Christmas Day) ADSL synchronisation has been rubbish all day,
with intermittent connections happening. My observations on the
connections started about 10.00 am this morning and continue to now
(very bad synchronisation) as described earlier for Monday. When I do
connect and send stuff, the uploading and downloading speeds have been
very slow. This suggests contention, which might be expected today.

SUMMARY

Between February 2005 and last week ADSL was fine, but this week it has
been totally unacceptable. Also, there has been no changes to my
hardware or software during the last 10 months.

QUESTION

1. Anyone suggest why?
2. What else can I do to get back my stable ADSL?
3. Any thoughts as to what may have changed at the exchange to
cause the problem?

When I was connected, while writing this e-mail, I did a router
diagnostic check, and the following was reported -

DSL Flavour = ADSL over POTS
Reserved Bandwidth (kbit/s) up/down = 288 / 576
Uptime = 00:00:56
kBytes Tx/Rx = 2 / 3

Properties
Output Power (dBm) up/down = 10.5 / 14.5
Attenuation (dB) up/down = 31.5 / 60.0
Noise Margin (dB) up/down = 19.0 / 7.5
Vendor Id (local/remote) = ALCB / TSTC

Statistics
Loss of signal (local/remote) = 25 / 0
Loss of power (local/remote) = 0 / 0
Loss of framing (local/remote) = 0 / 0
Errored Seconds (local/remote) = 1114 / 166
Loss of link (remote) = 25

- does this information help?

NOTE

1. I had Noise Margins as low as 7.5 (reported above) on Wednesday
(21st Dec) when the system was running green on synchronisation all day.

2. Outside of today the synchronisation problem seems to happen
just after lunch on a working day, when there are not large numbers of
people at home in the local villages. Certainly there is no impact on
connection speeds (contention).
--
John Clark

John wrote:
> Hi Guys, I was wondering if the collective experience of the group can
> advise me?

Cutting all the information I know but ..

A) The number of people using their ADSL connection should have no
bearing on whether you can synch or not (See later point though)
B) The test results, if accurate, are still good for a 512k connection,
especially if, as you say, you live 8km from the exchange,
C) The fact that it has come on quite recently indicates that there
could be a actual fault on your line, earth, battery, High Resitant
connection etc... which only BT can investigate. If you are in minor
contact with another ADSL circuit & if their usage correlates with your
drop outs that is the only way point A can be correct. I often hear
users blaming their problems on the fact that there are more users on
broadband when their service dies, sorry (I won't say can't happen) but
it is extremely unlikely, unless, as I've said, there is a line minor
fault between 2 circuits. The only thing the extra users will affect is
your connection speed which will possibly slow down

The fact that you have only a 512k circuit lies with the fact that your
line can support it & as I've said before, if your readings are
accurate, your chances of 1Mb are extremely slim as well let alone 2Mb,
it has nothing to do with whether your exchanges DSLAM's can supply 2Mb.
As default all DSLAM's can supply 2Mb, the exchange upgrades are to get
higher speeds (like 4 or even 8Mb).

As long as you've fully tested all your equipment & that you don't have
any rogue electrical gadgets near by (Christmas tree lights, fridges
freezers, central heating etc etc which can all create noise spikes) get
Demon to get an Openreach ADSL engineer out to you so that they can
fully test the line & if you get a CA ADSL Engineer don't be surprised
if they have to pass it on to a LN one. Remember if they track the
problem to something on your own private wiring if you want them to
correct it it will cost you £15 per quarter hour for them to do the
work, but you shouldn't be charged a visit charge as Demon will have
already paid for it.

"Kraftee" <(E-Mail Removed) please we're bristish.com> wrote
in message news:43af21ac$0$1480$(E-Mail Removed)...
> John wrote:
> > Hi Guys, I was wondering if the collective experience of the group can
> > advise me?
>
> Cutting all the information I know but ..
>
> A) The number of people using their ADSL connection should have no
> bearing on whether you can synch or not (See later point though)
> B) The test results, if accurate, are still good for a 512k connection,
> especially if, as you say, you live 8km from the exchange,
> C) The fact that it has come on quite recently indicates that there
> could be a actual fault on your line, earth, battery, High Resitant
> connection etc... which only BT can investigate. If you are in minor
> contact with another ADSL circuit & if their usage correlates with your
> drop outs that is the only way point A can be correct. I often hear
> users blaming their problems on the fact that there are more users on
> broadband when their service dies, sorry (I won't say can't happen) but
> it is extremely unlikely, unless, as I've said, there is a line minor
> fault between 2 circuits. The only thing the extra users will affect is
> your connection speed which will possibly slow down
>
> The fact that you have only a 512k circuit lies with the fact that your
> line can support it & as I've said before, if your readings are
> accurate, your chances of 1Mb are extremely slim as well let alone 2Mb,
> it has nothing to do with whether your exchanges DSLAM's can supply 2Mb.
> As default all DSLAM's can supply 2Mb, the exchange upgrades are to get
> higher speeds (like 4 or even 8Mb).
>
> As long as you've fully tested all your equipment & that you don't have
> any rogue electrical gadgets near by (Christmas tree lights, fridges
> freezers, central heating etc etc which can all create noise spikes) get
> Demon to get an Openreach ADSL engineer out to you so that they can
> fully test the line & if you get a CA ADSL Engineer don't be surprised
> if they have to pass it on to a LN one. Remember if they track the
> problem to something on your own private wiring if you want them to
> correct it it will cost you £15 per quarter hour for them to do the
> work, but you shouldn't be charged a visit charge as Demon will have
> already paid for it.



As above it does rather seem that the times your line drops may coincide
with the outside and inside xmas light timings, late afternoons for the past
week and all day xmas day?

I hope for you that it is that simple.

P
>
>

John <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> Hi Guys, I was wondering if the collective experience of the group can
> advise me?
>
> I should apologise for the length of this screed, but for reasons of
> diagnosis I feel I need to give the full story so far.
>
> I have 512 Kbps ADSL from Demon, and use a Speedtouch 510 Router with 4
> ethernet ports to connect 4 PCs. This acts as my DHCP server for the

My first plan would be to replace the router with the spare router.

I bought 2, for the simple reason that they are not expensive, and can
get destroyed by lightning.

I had similar experience some time in the summer,
for several days ADSL was almost unusable,
then it resumed normal operation.
I have put it down to BT doing some work on the network or exchange.
The trouble is my SNR has dropped from the usual steady 18dB
to fluctuating around 13 and often lot less.
This is now preventing me upgrading to 2Mb/s :-(
Regards,
Martin

Martin² wrote:
> I had similar experience some time in the summer,
> for several days ADSL was almost unusable,
> then it resumed normal operation.
> I have put it down to BT doing some work on the network or exchange.
> The trouble is my SNR has dropped from the usual steady 18dB
> to fluctuating around 13 and often lot less.
> This is now preventing me upgrading to 2Mb/s :-(
> Regards,
> Martin

If yur line has been restored to the original 18dB SNR, then (depending
on your Loop attenuation) you should be able to upgrade to 2Mb as your
SNR would only drop to around 12dB..

Kraftee wrote:
> Martin² wrote:
>> I had similar experience some time in the summer,
>> for several days ADSL was almost unusable,
>> then it resumed normal operation.
>> I have put it down to BT doing some work on the network or exchange.
>> The trouble is my SNR has dropped from the usual steady 18dB
>> to fluctuating around 13 and often lot less.
>> This is now preventing me upgrading to 2Mb/s :-(
>> Regards,
>> Martin
>
> If yur line has been restored to the original 18dB SNR, then
> (depending on your Loop attenuation) you should be able to upgrade to
> 2Mb as your SNR would only drop to around 12dB..

(Not often I follow up my own posts, but it is christmas so I think I'll
make an exception....)

The above statement (about the SNR's) if you're upgrading from 1Mb, if
you're wanting to upgrade from 512kb then I'm afraid your SNR even if
stable at 18dB would be a little to low, as the upgrade would take
anything up to 12dB off your results & anything under 10dB can be a
little flakey (how flakey would depend on how low yours goes)

In article <43af21ac$0$1480$(E-Mail Removed)>,
Kraftee <(E-Mail Removed)> writes
>
>Cutting all the information I know but ..
>
>A) The number of people using their ADSL connection should have no
>bearing on whether you can synch or not (See later point though)

I agree. I was not claiming the problem was down to numbers of users
(contention). It was slower today, as expected, being Christmas and
everybody being home. One point I was making was the synchronisation
problem occurred during working day afternoons when few people are home.

>B) The test results, if accurate, are still good for a 512k connection,
>especially if, as you say, you live 8km from the exchange,

The results I quote are for a 512 K connection, and from my router. I do
not claim them to be accurate ... only the figures reported by the
router. However, I would like to see a noise margin of over 20 dB

My ADSL connection, now it is past midnight, is stable and full speed
(checked on ADSLGuide/speed). I thought I would post the current router
diagnostic, which is back to my normal results ...

DSL Flavour = ADSL over POTS
Reserved Bandwidth (kbit/s) up/down = 288 / 576
Uptime = 00:26:51
kBytes Tx/Rx = 955 / 9704

Properties
Output Power (dBm) up/down = 10.5 / 14.5
Attenuation (dB) up/down = 31.5 / 60.0
Noise Margin (dB) up/down = 19.0 / 12.0
Vendor Id (local/remote) = ALCB / TSTC

Statistics
Loss of signal (local/remote) = 145 / 10
Loss of power (local/remote) = 0 / 0
Loss of framing (local/remote) = 0 / 0
Errored Seconds (local/remote) = 5898 / 1047
Loss of link (remote) = 145

>C) The fact that it has come on quite recently indicates that there
>could be a actual fault on your line, earth, battery, High Resitant
>connection etc...

A view I came to, but I thought I would check it out with the community.
Which is why I contacted Demon to complain about inadequate ADSL
service, so they could give BT a kick to do something about my line.

>which only BT can investigate. If you are in minor
>contact with another ADSL circuit & if their usage correlates with your
>drop outs that is the only way point A can be correct.

>I often hear
>users blaming their problems on the fact that there are more users on
>broadband when their service dies, sorry (I won't say can't happen) but
>it is extremely unlikely,

I agree it is highly unlikely (in my case). There is some other change
in the line, probably of a minor nature but sufficient to down the ADSL
synchronisation.

>unless, as I've said, there is a line minor
>fault between 2 circuits. The only thing the extra users will affect is
>your connection speed which will possibly slow down
>
>The fact that you have only a 512k circuit lies with the fact that your
>line can support it & as I've said before, if your readings are
>accurate, your chances of 1Mb are extremely slim as well let alone 2Mb,

Agreed. My attenuation down is on the boarder for 1Mb, so 2Mb is not
likely. The Noise Margin seems to be marginal now, if OK most of the
time. But if I could get 1Mb then this would drop by 6dB, and definitely
give line drops.

>it has nothing to do with whether your exchanges DSLAM's can supply 2Mb.
>As default all DSLAM's can supply 2Mb, the exchange upgrades are to get
>higher speeds (like 4 or even 8Mb).

The only time this will happen is if BT ups the attenuation and noise
margin loss figures, as they did September last year.

>
>As long as you've fully tested all your equipment & that you don't have
>any rogue electrical gadgets near by (Christmas tree lights, fridges
>freezers, central heating etc etc which can all create noise spikes)

I have checked these out, and the nearest is over 10 metres away. Not
likely to interfere. However, all the equipment, except Christmas tree
lights, have been present when the ADSL ran fine. The Christmas tree
lights are over 20 metres away from the telephone line, master socket
and incoming point.

> get
>Demon to get an Openreach ADSL engineer out to you so that they can
>fully test the line & if you get a CA ADSL Engineer don't be surprised
>if they have to pass it on to a LN one.

This is what I hope will happen, as a result of the contact, and
complaint, via Demon last Tuesday.

>Remember if they track the
>problem to something on your own private wiring if you want them to
>correct it it will cost you £15 per quarter hour for them to do the
>work, but you shouldn't be charged a visit charge as Demon will have
>already paid for it.
>
>

Many thanks for your input, and any more that might come along. This has
confirmed my own thoughts, and acts as a sounding board. Also, as I
mentioned earlier, the ADSL connection is back to normal, so what is
causing the line fault seems to change with the time of day. OK from
about 12.30 am to, say, 2.30 pm that afternoon. Then unstable from then
until the early hours of the following morning.

--
John Clark

In article <dond52$4nm$(E-Mail Removed)>, Peter
<p.?.?.(E-Mail Removed)> writes
>As above it does rather seem that the times your line drops may coincide
>with the outside and inside xmas light timings, late afternoons for the past
>week and all day xmas day?
>
>I hope for you that it is that simple.

So do I, but I am convinced it is not my lights. These are switched on
in the morning, when we get up, and only get turned off when we shut
down (about now).
--
John Clark

John wrote:
> In article <43af21ac$0$1480$(E-Mail Removed)>,
> Kraftee <(E-Mail Removed)> writes
>>
>> Cutting all the information I know but ..
>>
>> A) The number of people using their ADSL connection should have no
>> bearing on whether you can synch or not (See later point though)
>
> I agree. I was not claiming the problem was down to numbers of users
> (contention). It was slower today, as expected, being Christmas and
> everybody being home. One point I was making was the synchronisation
> problem occurred during working day afternoons when few people are
> home.
>
>> B) The test results, if accurate, are still good for a 512k
>> connection, especially if, as you say, you live 8km from the
>> exchange,
>
> The results I quote are for a 512 K connection, and from my router. I
> do not claim them to be accurate ... only the figures reported by the
> router. However, I would like to see a noise margin of over 20 dB
>
> My ADSL connection, now it is past midnight, is stable and full speed
> (checked on ADSLGuide/speed). I thought I would post the current
> router diagnostic, which is back to my normal results ...
>
> DSL Flavour = ADSL over POTS
> Reserved Bandwidth (kbit/s) up/down = 288 / 576
> Uptime = 00:26:51
> kBytes Tx/Rx = 955 / 9704
>
> Properties
> Output Power (dBm) up/down = 10.5 / 14.5
> Attenuation (dB) up/down = 31.5 / 60.0
> Noise Margin (dB) up/down = 19.0 / 12.0
> Vendor Id (local/remote) = ALCB / TSTC
>
> Statistics
> Loss of signal (local/remote) = 145 / 10
> Loss of power (local/remote) = 0 / 0
> Loss of framing (local/remote) = 0 / 0
> Errored Seconds (local/remote) = 5898 / 1047
> Loss of link (remote) = 145
>
>> C) The fact that it has come on quite recently indicates that there
>> could be a actual fault on your line, earth, battery, High Resitant
>> connection etc...
>
> A view I came to, but I thought I would check it out with the
> community. Which is why I contacted Demon to complain about
> inadequate ADSL service, so they could give BT a kick to do something
> about my line.
>
>> which only BT can investigate. If you are in minor
>> contact with another ADSL circuit & if their usage correlates with
>> your drop outs that is the only way point A can be correct.
>
>> I often hear
>> users blaming their problems on the fact that there are more users on
>> broadband when their service dies, sorry (I won't say can't happen)
>> but it is extremely unlikely,
>
> I agree it is highly unlikely (in my case). There is some other change
> in the line, probably of a minor nature but sufficient to down the
> ADSL synchronisation.
>
>> unless, as I've said, there is a line minor
>> fault between 2 circuits. The only thing the extra users will
>> affect is your connection speed which will possibly slow down
>>
>> The fact that you have only a 512k circuit lies with the fact that
>> your line can support it & as I've said before, if your readings are
>> accurate, your chances of 1Mb are extremely slim as well let alone
>> 2Mb,
>
> Agreed. My attenuation down is on the boarder for 1Mb, so 2Mb is not
> likely. The Noise Margin seems to be marginal now, if OK most of the
> time. But if I could get 1Mb then this would drop by 6dB, and
> definitely give line drops.
>
>> it has nothing to do with whether your exchanges DSLAM's can supply
>> 2Mb. As default all DSLAM's can supply 2Mb, the exchange upgrades
>> are to get higher speeds (like 4 or even 8Mb).
>
> The only time this will happen is if BT ups the attenuation and noise
> margin loss figures, as they did September last year.
>
>>
>> As long as you've fully tested all your equipment & that you don't
>> have any rogue electrical gadgets near by (Christmas tree lights,
>> fridges freezers, central heating etc etc which can all create noise
>> spikes)
>
> I have checked these out, and the nearest is over 10 metres away. Not
> likely to interfere. However, all the equipment, except Christmas tree
> lights, have been present when the ADSL ran fine. The Christmas tree
> lights are over 20 metres away from the telephone line, master socket
> and incoming point.
>
>> get
>> Demon to get an Openreach ADSL engineer out to you so that they can
>> fully test the line & if you get a CA ADSL Engineer don't be
>> surprised if they have to pass it on to a LN one.
>
> This is what I hope will happen, as a result of the contact, and
> complaint, via Demon last Tuesday.
>
>> Remember if they track the
>> problem to something on your own private wiring if you want them to
>> correct it it will cost you £15 per quarter hour for them to do the
>> work, but you shouldn't be charged a visit charge as Demon will have
>> already paid for it.
>>
>>
>
> Many thanks for your input, and any more that might come along. This
> has confirmed my own thoughts, and acts as a sounding board. Also, as
> I mentioned earlier, the ADSL connection is back to normal, so what is
> causing the line fault seems to change with the time of day. OK from
> about 12.30 am to, say, 2.30 pm that afternoon. Then unstable from
> then until the early hours of the following morning.

It will normally be caused by SNR problems. If they are going all over
the shop it would be indicative of a wiring problem somewhere. Whether
it's internal (your wiring) or external (BT's wiring) is anybodies guess
(& that's all it can be from a distance)..

Without running a 'copper line test' it's anybodies game & the only
people who can do one is BT (or one of it's many parts). If that comes
back with line tests ok I'd guess it's a HR connection, as for any other
fault that would depend on whether it's a battery contact, eartn contact
or loop...