«

How to get some sort of broadband to a few locations in a
mountain/island area? Telco is unable to provide a DSL service.

Thinking about wireless. Line of sight problems prevent 'star'
configuration. Was wondering whether a kind of wireless ring around
locations might work, (thinking that a ring might help if any node
fails for some reason), sharing a suitable ISP service at another
point where DSL is available?

Checked some manufacturer sites and some community sites, but unable
to get much detail on hop distances, frequency bands, or even suitable
network architectures.

It's a bit sparse. Inter-site hops are typically 3Km, shortest is 1Km
over water, longest is 6 Km over water. Presumably 'licence-exempt'
kit would not have the power for these ranges? Any suggestions for
bands and equipment? Looking for capacity to enable normal
participation on the Internet now and in the future - both domestic
and SoHo. Users would expect to pay normal ISP & line charges, plus
funding the community equipment investment & maintenance.

Would appreciate any comments or advice.


______________
best wishes,
Ron

"Ronnie" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> How to get some sort of broadband to a few locations in a
> mountain/island area? Telco is unable to provide a DSL service.
>
> Thinking about wireless. Line of sight problems prevent 'star'
> configuration. Was wondering whether a kind of wireless ring around
> locations might work, (thinking that a ring might help if any node
> fails for some reason), sharing a suitable ISP service at another
> point where DSL is available?
>
> Checked some manufacturer sites and some community sites, but unable
> to get much detail on hop distances, frequency bands, or even suitable
> network architectures.
>
> It's a bit sparse. Inter-site hops are typically 3Km, shortest is 1Km
> over water, longest is 6 Km over water. Presumably 'licence-exempt'
> kit would not have the power for these ranges? Any suggestions for
> bands and equipment? Looking for capacity to enable normal
> participation on the Internet now and in the future - both domestic
> and SoHo. Users would expect to pay normal ISP & line charges, plus
> funding the community equipment investment & maintenance.
>
> Would appreciate any comments or advice.
>
>
> ______________
> best wishes,
> Ron

To which part of the UK are you referring?
I seem to recall that there was a programme to put broadband into
"non-cost-effective" locations in Scotland (Highlands and Islands) a while
back. Wales has/had? a similar (if half-hearted) scheme I believe.
George

On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 15:21:11 +0100, "George Weston"
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>
>"Ronnie" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>> How to get some sort of broadband to a few locations in a
>> mountain/island area?
>
>To which part of the UK are you referring?
>I seem to recall that there was a programme to put broadband into
>"non-cost-effective" locations in Scotland (Highlands and Islands) a while
>back. Wales has/had? a similar (if half-hearted) scheme I believe.
>George
>
>
The location is in Scotland. There are/were two Scottish broadband
initiatives.

There *may* be funding support from the Scottish Executive if there is
a dependable (low fault rate, reasonable economic life, practical
maintainability) solution and there are *businesses* requring it. The
community wants to find a workable solution, with performance that
they can specifiy, and that will scale with evolving demands for
bandwidth. We find that Internet applications increasingly require
higher bandwidth (SSL, graphic-heavy, mini-applications to download)
and will probably continue to require increased bandwidth.

There was another SE initiative for 'broadband everywhere' which
seemed to be really to a 'point of presence', not to particular users.
The community is trying to solve the *last mile* infrastructure (well,
last few Kms, really) problems in its district.


______________
best wishes,
Ron

Ronnie wrote:
> The location is in Scotland.

A google for broadband wireless mesh .uk produces lots of useful-looking
suggestions including

http://www.locustworld.com/

David Piehn from Maple Leaf Networks has set up a massive network across
rural Minnesota using the LocustWorld Mesh. The extent of the MLeaf mesh
is shown through their node map in and around the small town of Harmony,
MN. The MLeaf mesh provides massive coverage. Using just 12 meshboxes,
the network extends over more than 75 square miles.
http://www.locustworld.com/modules.p...rder=0&thold=0

Typically a commercial mesh becomes viable with around 50 domestic
users, or 20 business users. Co-op meshes that are run by volunteers
have lower operating overheads, and they can become economical with
around 20 domestic users.
Each link in the mesh relies on a good wireless connection between one
meshbox and the next, but there is no absolute limit to the number of
links in the mesh, so you can cover any area with the mesh. Wireless
links between mesh nodes can be in the range of 500m to 5km, depending
upon the terrain, antenna and output power.
http://locustworld.com/modules.php?o...rtid=10&page=1

There's an article about it in The Register

A UK company has produced Mesh wireless technology which you can buy and
install, today, for under £300.
Fancy setting up as a rival to BT Openworld? Even in a remote
village? Easy: buy a Locustworld MeshBox; half the price of a home PC.
You're in business.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/02..._wireless_isp/

Article at
http://www.communitywireless.org/mod...rder=0&thold=0

My laptop is so far from bandwidth it has a nosebleed. In the village of
Kirkby Stephen, in the Eden Valley, on the border between Cumbria and
the Yorkshire Dales, getting on to the internet is a major effort. With
phone lines shared between remote farmhouses, and mobile phones a cruel
fantasy, an internet connection here can drop as low as 12Kbps - if you
can get online at all.
But all of this is about to change. EdenFaster, a local community
organisation, is about to supply broadband internet connections to the
entire valley, bringing 10,000 people, 500 businesses and 50 schools
online with an internet connection 20 times faster than ADSL for half
the price. They're doing it on their own because of a "perceived lack of
demand" by telecoms companies. They're doing it wirelessly, and they're
one of the leaders in the new revolution in ways to deliver the internet
in the UK.
http://technology.guardian.co.uk/onl...803023,00.html

Across Northern Ireland, DETI, under the UK Broadband Fund, has already
committed almost one million pounds covering a wide range of technology
and electronic service trials. Over 30 projects have been supported
including:
• Broadband wireless services trial in the south Antrim area
• Development of a virtual trade fair and business broadcasting channel
in Belfast
• Radio mesh broadband wireless trial in Dundrum
http://www.detini.gov.uk/cgi-bin/downutildoc?id=201 (PDF file)

Buckfastleigh Broadband
http://www.broadband-buckfastleigh.org/

HIE have set up the Community Network Demonstration project (Hi-Wide) as
part of a major investment to bring broadband to communities that are
not covered by broadband technologies. As part of this, they have set up
Wireless Networks in 5 communities, intended to demonstrate wireless
broadband technologies and test the process of rolling out to the most
remote communities throughout the Highlands and Islands. Two wireless
trials are also underway in the SEn area in Aberfoyle and Lochwinnoch
where communities have been very innovative and proactive in getting
these aggregated community broadband demand projects underway. Apart
from getting users connected to broadband, SEn is garnering key learning
from these pilots on how to overcome the logistical, technical,
organisational and legal challenges posed by this model. ...
Two broadband projects, being undertaken in Ayrshire, are
investigating the benefits of broadband to the rural and voluntary
sectors. The Community Broadband Project - is a technology trial
providing broadband connectivity to 11 third sector organisations such
as voluntary groups and not for profit organisations in the Girvan and
Ardrossan areas of Ayrshire. It is delivering huge benefits to the
organisations which are dealing with disability, rural transport
initiatives and youth development as part of their remit. The Broadband
Farming Project is using wireless technology to deliver specialist
rural content and applications to 14 rural and farm businesses based in
south Ayrshire. The project is raising awareness and stimulating demand
for broadband access from local SMEs, residents and community groups in
the area, by demonstrating the benefits experienced by the pilots’ users
http://www.broadbanduk.org/reports/r..._appendix8.pdf

See also
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publicati...12/15863/14244

Owain

Ronnie wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 15:21:11 +0100, "George Weston"
> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>> "Ronnie" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>> news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>>> How to get some sort of broadband to a few locations in a
>>> mountain/island area?
>> To which part of the UK are you referring?
>> I seem to recall that there was a programme to put broadband into
>> "non-cost-effective" locations in Scotland (Highlands and Islands) a while
>> back. Wales has/had? a similar (if half-hearted) scheme I believe.
>> George
>>
>>
> The location is in Scotland. There are/were two Scottish broadband
> initiatives.
>
> There *may* be funding support from the Scottish Executive if there is
> a dependable (low fault rate, reasonable economic life, practical
> maintainability) solution and there are *businesses* requring it. The
> community wants to find a workable solution, with performance that
> they can specifiy, and that will scale with evolving demands for
> bandwidth. We find that Internet applications increasingly require
> higher bandwidth (SSL, graphic-heavy, mini-applications to download)
> and will probably continue to require increased bandwidth.
>
> There was another SE initiative for 'broadband everywhere' which
> seemed to be really to a 'point of presence', not to particular users.
> The community is trying to solve the *last mile* infrastructure (well,
> last few Kms, really) problems in its district.
>
>
> ______________
> best wishes,
> Ron

Ofcom is currently reviewing the 2.4GHz and 5GHz wireless frequency
bands, with a view towards increasing the maximum permitted ?signal
strength? to 10W, IIRC. If/when that happens, off-the-shelf wireless kit
"might" meet your needs - if you get some really good antennae.

Oh, and have you found http://www.solwise.co.uk/los.htm yet? Fairly good.

Most long-range point-to-point wireless links use microwaves - but IIRC,
you need to get a license from Ofcom for that, and the equipment is
expensive. So best to try the unlicensed stuff first .

Backhaul - the cheapest, obviously, is some sort of DSL-based service,
but depending on how many users you have and what sort of reliability
you're after, might not be enough. As for the network topology, a ring
would probably be best as long as every location has (radio) LoS to
it's two neighbours - you'll at least have two points of redundancy,
(with the caveat that two failures could take out a major chunk of the
ring, so you'd be better off having at least a few cross-links as well,
if you can budget for them).

Depending on how things go, and what the terrain is like, you might not
want to limit yourself to wireless - for instance, for that 6km over
water stretch (where is it going? Skara Brae? ) sounds pretty hard -
and very expensive - using wireless; so it might be more practical -
even cheaper? - with underwater fiber-optics. Haven't done any sums,
mind you . But if it lets you get away with a lower-spec. system for
the rest of the area, that's bound to save at least a bit of money.

Well, until the dogfish bite a chunk out of the cable...

xF,

....Nick

In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
Owain <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>Buckfastleigh Broadband
>http://www.broadband-buckfastleigh.org/

Hehe... I built this, and still live in the area. I actually picked
Buckfastleigh to live in because of this project (we were looking to
move to Devon anyway) It was a lot of fun, and we learned a lot.

And I built the commercial setup that came after it too (working for
1st Broadband, now well defunct) We also had 2 areas of Cornwall wired
up with WiFi too. 10Mb backhauls to Exeter and a mixture of 2.4Ghz and
5.7Ghz kit to provide infrastructure.

Would I do it again, or recommend anyone to do it? No way! We went
tits-up.com because it was never commercially viable. WiFi is rubbish.
No, I'll correct that, WiFi is great - for what it was designed for. What
I found was that just one or 2 selfish bastards could cripple the entire
network. WiFi is half duplex, and don't let anyone try to convince you
otherwise. One person doing large uploads will kill it for people doing
downloads. Gaming and VoIP kills it too (WiFi was designed & optimised
for large packets, small packets kill it) We also had "issues" with
people paying. Or not paying, as it turned out.

Also, the real cost of installing it was somewhere over £250 per house,
and no-one was willing to pay that, and that didn't cover things like
rental of farms, and goodwill gestures to people to host relay stations,
etc. Trying to get more than £20 a month out of people was very difficult
too. Over 120 people promised to sign up for the commercial system,
and less than 50 did so when it went live (in one area)

I'm not bitter (really!) it might seem that way, but I had great fun
with it all, but I'd never do it again, nor advise anyone to do it on a
commercial scale unless you live somewhere completely flat. Devon and
Cornwall is far from flat, alas, and you quickly run out of goodwill
when you want to install relay stations, routers, etc. in peoples houses.

Most of our install cost went on installing decent outdoor quality kit.
(the WiFi stuff was all SmartBridges - Ethernet directly to the outdoor
box - none of this run a bit of co-ax outdoors stuff, you want quality,
keep the co-ax runs to an absolute minimal) If you want to give any sort
of quality assurance at all, it absolutely must be line of sight, and
don't forget the fresnel zone! So we employed TV aerial fitters to do a
proper job (and these people were insured!) so that cost money too. By
all means DIY it, but be prepared for people to whinge about drilling
holes through houses, etc.

And you need to control the abusers, the peer to peer file stealers and
so on. You need to do this right at the access point they connect to,
even then they'll still cause havoc for others using that access point,
so that requires expensive access points with traffic shaping built in
- or a mesh unit (we never used the commercial mesh units - didn't reckon
they'd work in our situation at the time)

Feel free to get in-touch if you like, but personally I'd recommend you
to run away from a WiFi project - UNLESS you make it truly community
based with EVERYONE involved prepared to pay their own way, and sign
disclaimers, etc. (not that they are worth anything, but it's a start!)

Good luck!

Gordon

In article <(E-Mail Removed)>, Ronnie <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>It's a bit sparse. Inter-site hops are typically 3Km, shortest is 1Km
>over water, longest is 6 Km over water. Presumably 'licence-exempt'
>kit would not have the power for these ranges? Any suggestions for
>bands and equipment?

Actually, it does, but it absolutely must have line of sight, and you
might need directional antennae - grid parabolics, and so on. The longest
run to a customer premises we did was 6 miles - there was a 9db omni at
the access point end, and an 18db grid parabolic at the customers end.
If the water is tidal, it'll have an effect to a degree. Look up "fresnel
zone" as what might at first look like line of sight might not be when
you consider the fresnel zone...

We also had a 5.7Ghz Aperto link going over 17 miles too, but that had
2-foot dishes at each end... (and was £several K's worth of kit!)

If you want "carrier grade" have a look at http://www.orthogonsystems.com/
but they've just been bought out by Motorola, but it's not cheap!!!


> Looking for capacity to enable normal
>participation on the Internet now and in the future - both domestic
>and SoHo. Users would expect to pay normal ISP & line charges, plus
>funding the community equipment investment & maintenance.
>
>Would appreciate any comments or advice.

See my other post. Give up. Put sattelite in a location which might be
a line of sight "hub" betwen 2-3 punters wanting service and share it
between them...

Good luck!

Gordon

Ronnie wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 15:21:11 +0100, "George Weston"
> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>
>>"Ronnie" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>>news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>>
>>>How to get some sort of broadband to a few locations in a
>>>mountain/island area?
>>
>>To which part of the UK are you referring?
>>I seem to recall that there was a programme to put broadband into
>>"non-cost-effective" locations in Scotland (Highlands and Islands) a while
>>back. Wales has/had? a similar (if half-hearted) scheme I believe.
>>George
>>
>>
>
> The location is in Scotland. There are/were two Scottish broadband
> initiatives.
>
> There *may* be funding support from the Scottish Executive if there is
> a dependable (low fault rate, reasonable economic life, practical
> maintainability) solution and there are *businesses* requring it. The
> community wants to find a workable solution, with performance that
> they can specifiy, and that will scale with evolving demands for
> bandwidth. We find that Internet applications increasingly require
> higher bandwidth (SSL, graphic-heavy, mini-applications to download)
> and will probably continue to require increased bandwidth.
>
> There was another SE initiative for 'broadband everywhere' which
> seemed to be really to a 'point of presence', not to particular users.
> The community is trying to solve the *last mile* infrastructure (well,
> last few Kms, really) problems in its district.
>
>

I assume you are aware of the Connected Communities project
in Western Isles? It would be worth talking to someone
there, as they've been through it all and have a working
system. Their radio links to subscribers are symmetric,
capable of up to 5 Mbps, I believe, though the retail
products are limited to 2 Mbps.

On Sun, 13 Aug 2006 10:45:40 +0100, JW <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>I assume you are aware of the Connected Communities project
>in Western Isles? It would be worth talking to someone
>there, as they've been through it all and have a working
>system. Their radio links to subscribers are symmetric,
>capable of up to 5 Mbps, I believe, though the retail
>products are limited to 2 Mbps.

It works IF there are no links across tidal water. Unfortunately there
are and they don't work for large periods of time. The backhaul is
MASSIVELY overcontended and support is awful. We're talking so bad
they make ISPs like Plusnet look good.

The Connected Communities project has done little but swallow up
public money while denying people the chance of broadband for 2 years.
For example villages with "Connected Communities" transceivers will
never have their exchanges ADSL enabled so they're stuck on 2Mbps
while in the next village everyone can get 8Mbps and have had
broadband for 2 years in some cases. Every exchange on the island has
ADSL apart from the "Connected Communities" villages. What's worse is
that in villages just about everyone is within 2km of the exchange so
high speed ADSL (10Mbps+) is actually deliverable to most people.

In short "Connected Communities" is close to being a total disaster.

Not the best example to pick ;-)
--
John Naismith

In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
John Naismith <john$(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>The Connected Communities project has done little but swallow up
>public money while denying people the chance of broadband for 2 years.
>For example villages with "Connected Communities" transceivers will
>never have their exchanges ADSL enabled so they're stuck on 2Mbps
>while in the next village everyone can get 8Mbps and have had
>broadband for 2 years in some cases. Every exchange on the island has
>ADSL apart from the "Connected Communities" villages. What's worse is
>that in villages just about everyone is within 2km of the exchange so
>high speed ADSL (10Mbps+) is actually deliverable to most people.

Fascinating! When we did the initial Buckfastleigh project, BT told
us out exchange would never be viable, then towards the end, they said
that they were going to enable our exchange that month, thus effectively
shafting any private entreprise... In the end they didn't, so the private
enterprise (1st Broadband) went ahead, but they eventually enabled the
exchange anyway (some 2 years later)

I guess in this case, it's the public money bit that might be causing BT
to stall the local exchanges (so why don't the CC villagers just hijack
the network and backhaul from a neighbouring village than rely on their
overloaded backhauls ;-)

Gordon