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How can such a small device -- a wrist watch -- receive such long-wave radio signals?

 
 
Radium
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Posts: n/a

 
      07-03-2007, 01:30 AM
On Jul 1, 4:34 pm, Jeff Liebermann <j...@cruzio.com> wrote in
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.e...ad94699?hl=en&
:
> Tommy Tootles <t...@toot.com> hath wroth:
>
> >Jeff Liebermann wrote:

>
> >> 40KHz thru 285Khz? Great idea. Just one minor problem. A 1/4 wave
> >> antenna at about 100Khz frequency is 750 meters long. That's going to
> >> be a rather large antenna for literally dragging behind you.

> >Well, your math is correct. However, the so-called "atomic" wrist
> >watches receive their time signal from WWVB which transmits at 60kHz.

>
> Yes, but the original derranged rantings required that *AUDIO* be
> used. This was suppose to be some kind of replacement for cellular.
> None of the long wave time standards belch audio like the short wave
> WWV stations.
>
> However, these time code transmitters operate at RF frequencies as low
> as 20KHz (mostly in Russia). See:
> <http://www.npl.co.uk/time/measurement_time/time_trans.html> (2002)
>
> >How do they get that 1250 meter long antenna ( 1/4 wave at 60 kHz)
> >inside that itty bitty wrist watch case? ;-)

>
> Touche and good question. Most of the desktop variety have a ferrite
> rod loaded with lots of fine wire. I have several like this, one with
> an external rod. However, that's obviously not going to work in a
> wristwatch unit. I don't have any idea what's inside or how the
> antenna done, but I can guess(tm). Here's one way:
> <http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/atomic-bill/>
>
> The question has been asked before:
> <http://www.eham.net/forums/Elmers/148090>
> However, no real description of what's inside the wristwatch.
>
> Going to the source:
> <http://tf.nist.gov/stations/radioclocks.htm>
> NIST Recommended Practices for WWVB receivers.
> <http://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/1976.pdf> (See section 8A)
> "We recommend that RCC products should be sensitive enough
> to successfully synchronize to signals from WWVB with a field
> strength of 50 uV/m, if the signal to noise ratio exceeds 20 dB.
> The RF bandwidth of the receiver should be narrow, typically
> =B110 Hz or less."
> and:
> "Wristwatch antennas should not be contained in the band,
> so that RCC watch bands can be replaced in the same manner
> as the bands of ordinary watches when they are damaged or
> worn out."
>
> So much for the antenna in the wrist band idea. So, the question is,
> what type of tiny antenna will work with such a field strength at
> 60KHz. I dug through the FCC ID web pile looking for an inside photo
> of Casio watch, but couldn't find anything. I'm gonna have to either
> break one open, and/or calculate the field strength of a very small
> ferrite rod antenna (later).
>
> --
> Jeff Liebermann j...@cruzio.com
> 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Santa Cruz CA 95060http://802.11junk.com
> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558


Sorry, I am now extremely interested and frustrated about how the
wristwatch can be so tiny yet receive so long-wave signals.

Just how does such a magical device work? It seems to defy laws of
science that such a small device can operate at such long-wavelengths
of radio waves.

I suspect it's probably something those FBI/CIA bastards are going to
keep secret from us.

Sick government f---scums. USA citizens should turn against the FBI/
CIA and molest the f---ing s--- out of their colons using bubbas' c--
ks.

I want to know how such a tiny device can operate at such a long
wavelength. Unfortunately, that info is classified by the FBI/CIA, and
then won't let me or any USA citizen find out about it.

I am getting so pissed off right now.

I am so interested in this wristwatch question yet I am so angry about
it because the FBI/CIA won't let me know about it.

F--k the CIA/FBI, may they be raped by big bubbas.

No offense but please respond with reasonable answers & keep out the
jokes, off-topic nonsense, taunts, insults, and trivializations. I am
really interested in this.

 
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jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com
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Posts: n/a

 
      07-03-2007, 01:55 AM
In rec.radio.amateur.antenna Radium <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> Sorry, I am now extremely interested and frustrated about how the
> wristwatch can be so tiny yet receive so long-wave signals.


> Just how does such a magical device work? It seems to defy laws of
> science that such a small device can operate at such long-wavelengths
> of radio waves.


Have you ever seen a portable AM radio, e.g. a Walkman?

<snip remaining idiocy>

Idiot troll.

--
Jim Pennino

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gyansorova@gmail.com
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Posts: n/a

 
      07-03-2007, 02:07 AM
On Jul 3, 1:30 pm, Radium <gluceg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 1, 4:34 pm, Jeff Liebermann <j...@cruzio.com> wrote inhttp://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.basics/msg/41b78aad0ad...
> :
>
>
>
> > Tommy Tootles <t...@toot.com> hath wroth:

>
> > >Jeff Liebermann wrote:

>
> > >> 40KHz thru 285Khz? Great idea. Just one minor problem. A 1/4 wave
> > >> antenna at about 100Khz frequency is 750 meters long. That's going to
> > >> be a rather large antenna for literally dragging behind you.
> > >Well, your math is correct. However, the so-called "atomic" wrist
> > >watches receive their time signal from WWVB which transmits at 60kHz.

>
> > Yes, but the original derranged rantings required that *AUDIO* be
> > used. This was suppose to be some kind of replacement for cellular.
> > None of the long wave time standards belch audio like the short wave
> > WWV stations.

>
> > However, these time code transmitters operate at RF frequencies as low
> > as 20KHz (mostly in Russia). See:
> > <http://www.npl.co.uk/time/measurement_time/time_trans.html> (2002)

>
> > >How do they get that 1250 meter long antenna ( 1/4 wave at 60 kHz)
> > >inside that itty bitty wrist watch case? ;-)

>
> > Touche and good question. Most of the desktop variety have a ferrite
> > rod loaded with lots of fine wire. I have several like this, one with
> > an external rod. However, that's obviously not going to work in a
> > wristwatch unit. I don't have any idea what's inside or how the
> > antenna done, but I can guess(tm). Here's one way:
> > <http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/atomic-bill/>

>
> > The question has been asked before:
> > <http://www.eham.net/forums/Elmers/148090>
> > However, no real description of what's inside the wristwatch.

>
> > Going to the source:
> > <http://tf.nist.gov/stations/radioclocks.htm>
> > NIST Recommended Practices for WWVB receivers.
> > <http://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/1976.pdf> (See section 8A)
> > "We recommend that RCC products should be sensitive enough
> > to successfully synchronize to signals from WWVB with a field
> > strength of 50 uV/m, if the signal to noise ratio exceeds 20 dB.
> > The RF bandwidth of the receiver should be narrow, typically
> > =B110 Hz or less."
> > and:
> > "Wristwatch antennas should not be contained in the band,
> > so that RCC watch bands can be replaced in the same manner
> > as the bands of ordinary watches when they are damaged or
> > worn out."

>
> > So much for the antenna in the wrist band idea. So, the question is,
> > what type of tiny antenna will work with such a field strength at
> > 60KHz. I dug through the FCC ID web pile looking for an inside photo
> > of Casio watch, but couldn't find anything. I'm gonna have to either
> > break one open, and/or calculate the field strength of a very small
> > ferrite rod antenna (later).

>
> > --
> > Jeff Liebermann j...@cruzio.com
> > 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> > Santa Cruz CA 95060http://802.11junk.com
> > Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

>
> Sorry, I am now extremely interested and frustrated about how the
> wristwatch can be so tiny yet receive so long-wave signals.
>
> Just how does such a magical device work? It seems to defy laws of
> science that such a small device can operate at such long-wavelengths
> of radio waves.
>
> I suspect it's probably something those FBI/CIA bastards are going to
> keep secret from us.
>
> Sick government f---scums. USA citizens should turn against the FBI/
> CIA and molest the f---ing s--- out of their colons using bubbas' c--
> ks.
>
> I want to know how such a tiny device can operate at such a long
> wavelength. Unfortunately, that info is classified by the FBI/CIA, and
> then won't let me or any USA citizen find out about it.
>
> I am getting so pissed off right now.
>
> I am so interested in this wristwatch question yet I am so angry about
> it because the FBI/CIA won't let me know about it.
>
> F--k the CIA/FBI, may they be raped by big bubbas.
>
> No offense but please respond with reasonable answers & keep out the
> jokes, off-topic nonsense, taunts, insults, and trivializations. I am
> really interested in this.


Normally they can coil the aerial inside the device either as a real
coil or on an IC. This takes a lot of space however.

 
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Dave Platt
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Posts: n/a

 
      07-03-2007, 02:09 AM
In article <(E-Mail Removed). com>,
Radium <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>> Going to the source:
>> <http://tf.nist.gov/stations/radioclocks.htm>
>> NIST Recommended Practices for WWVB receivers.
>> <http://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/1976.pdf> (See section 8A)
>> "We recommend that RCC products should be sensitive enough
>> to successfully synchronize to signals from WWVB with a field
>> strength of 50 uV/m, if the signal to noise ratio exceeds 20 dB.
>> The RF bandwidth of the receiver should be narrow, typically
>> =B110 Hz or less."
>> and:
>> "Wristwatch antennas should not be contained in the band,
>> so that RCC watch bands can be replaced in the same manner
>> as the bands of ordinary watches when they are damaged or
>> worn out."
>>
>> So much for the antenna in the wrist band idea. So, the question is,
>> what type of tiny antenna will work with such a field strength at
>> 60KHz. I dug through the FCC ID web pile looking for an inside photo
>> of Casio watch, but couldn't find anything. I'm gonna have to either
>> break one open, and/or calculate the field strength of a very small
>> ferrite rod antenna (later).
>>
>> --
>> Jeff Liebermann j...@cruzio.com
>> 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
>> Santa Cruz CA 95060http://802.11junk.com
>> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

>
>Sorry, I am now extremely interested and frustrated about how the
>wristwatch can be so tiny yet receive so long-wave signals.
>
>Just how does such a magical device work? It seems to defy laws of
>science that such a small device can operate at such long-wavelengths
>of radio waves.
>
>I suspect it's probably something those FBI/CIA bastards are going to
>keep secret from us.... >>SNIP<<


$DEITY, man, get a grip on yourself, OK? This is *old* technology - a
similar method has been used in AM radios for decades, dating to back
before the transistor was invented. There is nothing at all tricky,
or hidden/concealed about it.

>No offense but please respond with reasonable answers & keep out the
>jokes, off-topic nonsense, taunts, insults, and trivializations. I am
>really interested in this.


So, go "back to the source" just as the previous poster did.

A quick Google on the phrase "wwv watch antenna ferrite" turns up, as
its very first alternative, the following:

http://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/1877.pdf

which is a very nice overview of radio controlled clocks, courtesy of
the United States Government (specifically, the National Institute of
Standards and Technology).

On Page 11 you'll see a clear photo of the sort of antenna used in a
WWVB-capable desk clock. It's a standard ferrite loop antenna.

On the following page you'll see a photo of the innards of a
WWVB-capable watch. It has a similar (although smaller)
ferrite-loaded loop antenna.

If you go to http://www.mas-oy.com/data/MAS_docu_AR.htm you'll find
the web site (with data sheets) for WWVB receiver chips. Download the
MAS9180 data sheet. You'll see schematics, which show how a
ferrite-loaded antenna is combined with a capacitor, creating a
resonant circuit tuned to the 60 kHz (or whatever) radio signal.

The trick is fundamentally no different that the one used in an
ordinary battery-powered AM broadcast radio, which (in the older
designs) uses a ferrite-core multi-turn loop antenna, tuned to
resonate at AM broadcast frequencies using a variable capacitor
(typically a 365 pF maximum). The WWVB frequency is about 10% that of
signals at the low end of the AM broadcast band, so it's necessary to
use a larger-value capacitor to tune any given amount of ferrite
antenna inductance to the desired frequency, but it's the same method.

As to how it works... well, think of it this way (and this is just an
approximation). The high magnetic permeability of the ferrite acts as
a sort of "concentrator", so that more of the transmitted EM field
flows through the antenna than would be the case if the antenna had an
air or plastic core. And, the large number of turns of wire on the
antenna both increases the amount of signal produced by the EM field,
and adds enough inductance that it's possible to tune the antenna to
resonance with a reasonable-sized capacitor.

Google on "small loop antennas" for more background.

--
Dave Platt <(E-Mail Removed)> AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!
 
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gyansorova@gmail.com
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Posts: n/a

 
      07-03-2007, 02:14 AM
On Jul 3, 2:09 pm, dpl...@radagast.org (Dave Platt) wrote:
> In article <1183426202.090405.75...@d30g2000prg.googlegroups. com>,
>
>
>
> Radium <gluceg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Going to the source:
> >> <http://tf.nist.gov/stations/radioclocks.htm>
> >> NIST Recommended Practices for WWVB receivers.
> >> <http://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/1976.pdf> (See section 8A)
> >> "We recommend that RCC products should be sensitive enough
> >> to successfully synchronize to signals from WWVB with a field
> >> strength of 50 uV/m, if the signal to noise ratio exceeds 20 dB.
> >> The RF bandwidth of the receiver should be narrow, typically
> >> =B110 Hz or less."
> >> and:
> >> "Wristwatch antennas should not be contained in the band,
> >> so that RCC watch bands can be replaced in the same manner
> >> as the bands of ordinary watches when they are damaged or
> >> worn out."

>
> >> So much for the antenna in the wrist band idea. So, the question is,
> >> what type of tiny antenna will work with such a field strength at
> >> 60KHz. I dug through the FCC ID web pile looking for an inside photo
> >> of Casio watch, but couldn't find anything. I'm gonna have to either
> >> break one open, and/or calculate the field strength of a very small
> >> ferrite rod antenna (later).

>
> >> --
> >> Jeff Liebermann j...@cruzio.com
> >> 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> >> Santa Cruz CA 95060http://802.11junk.com
> >> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

>
> >Sorry, I am now extremely interested and frustrated about how the
> >wristwatch can be so tiny yet receive so long-wave signals.

>
> >Just how does such a magical device work? It seems to defy laws of
> >science that such a small device can operate at such long-wavelengths
> >of radio waves.

>
> >I suspect it's probably something those FBI/CIA bastards are going to
> >keep secret from us.... >>SNIP<<

>
> $DEITY, man, get a grip on yourself, OK? This is *old* technology - a
> similar method has been used in AM radios for decades, dating to back
> before the transistor was invented. There is nothing at all tricky,
> or hidden/concealed about it.
>
> >No offense but please respond with reasonable answers & keep out the
> >jokes, off-topic nonsense, taunts, insults, and trivializations. I am
> >really interested in this.

>
> So, go "back to the source" just as the previous poster did.
>
> A quick Google on the phrase "wwv watch antenna ferrite" turns up, as
> its very first alternative, the following:
>
> http://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/1877.pdf
>
> which is a very nice overview of radio controlled clocks, courtesy of
> the United States Government (specifically, the National Institute of
> Standards and Technology).
>
> On Page 11 you'll see a clear photo of the sort of antenna used in a
> WWVB-capable desk clock. It's a standard ferrite loop antenna.
>
> On the following page you'll see a photo of the innards of a
> WWVB-capable watch. It has a similar (although smaller)
> ferrite-loaded loop antenna.
>
> If you go tohttp://www.mas-oy.com/data/MAS_docu_AR.htmyou'll find
> the web site (with data sheets) for WWVB receiver chips. Download the
> MAS9180 data sheet. You'll see schematics, which show how a
> ferrite-loaded antenna is combined with a capacitor, creating a
> resonant circuit tuned to the 60 kHz (or whatever) radio signal.
>
> The trick is fundamentally no different that the one used in an
> ordinary battery-powered AM broadcast radio, which (in the older
> designs) uses a ferrite-core multi-turn loop antenna, tuned to
> resonate at AM broadcast frequencies using a variable capacitor
> (typically a 365 pF maximum). The WWVB frequency is about 10% that of
> signals at the low end of the AM broadcast band, so it's necessary to
> use a larger-value capacitor to tune any given amount of ferrite
> antenna inductance to the desired frequency, but it's the same method.
>
> As to how it works... well, think of it this way (and this is just an
> approximation). The high magnetic permeability of the ferrite acts as
> a sort of "concentrator", so that more of the transmitted EM field
> flows through the antenna than would be the case if the antenna had an
> air or plastic core. And, the large number of turns of wire on the
> antenna both increases the amount of signal produced by the EM field,
> and adds enough inductance that it's possible to tune the antenna to
> resonance with a reasonable-sized capacitor.
>
> Google on "small loop antennas" for more background.
>
> --
> Dave Platt <dpl...@radagast.org> AE6EO
> Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
> I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
> boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!


http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~jcgl/Sc...rt7/page5.html


 
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Paul Cardinale
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      07-03-2007, 02:29 AM

Radium wrote:

[snip]

>
> Sorry, I am now extremely interested and frustrated about how the
> wristwatch can be so tiny yet receive so long-wave signals.
>
> Just how does such a magical device work? It seems to defy laws of
> science that such a small device can operate at such long-wavelengths
> of radio waves.
>
> I suspect it's probably something those FBI/CIA bastards are going to
> keep secret from us.
>


If you weren't a babbling imbecile you would realize that the fact
that you can buy a wristwatch with a LW receiver in it means that the
technology is not classified (or do you harbor the delusion that the
FBI/CIA [sic] makes the watches?)

Paul Cardinale

 
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Radium
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Posts: n/a

 
      07-03-2007, 02:59 AM
On Jul 2, 7:29 pm, Paul Cardinale <pcardin...@volcanomail.com> wrote:

> If you weren't a babbling imbecile you would realize that the fact
> that you can buy a wristwatch with a LW receiver in it means that the
> technology is not classified (or do you harbor the delusion that the
> FBI/CIA [sic] makes the watches?)


In the thread where I talk about analog cell phones using AM radio
between 40 KHz - 285Khz, responders told me that it is impractical
because the receiver would need to be too big to be portable.

Then the topic of how wrist-watches can receiver long-wave while still
being so small began.

>From the links and from what the responders said -- in that thread, it

seemed that there just wasn't any explanation as to how wrist-watches
could operate in long-wave.

Usually with weird gadgetry like this, I tend to believe someone [or a
lot of someones] is/are attempting to cover up a new type of
technology that somehow exists and functions despite defying
conventional laws of science.

I then get extremely curious, jealous, and angry and want to forcibly
get information as to how it is possible for that device to work. I
want to torture the designers -- who I believe are the CIA/FBI -- into
providing me the information. Its only human nature to be interested
in things that seem too good to be true yet are still possible and
existing with full functionality.

I start to believe only the CIA/FBI could be doing something like this
because they are the smartest and most evil bastards in the universe.
Cold-hearted CIA f-kfoams.

I get the feeling that the exploitative sadistic CIA/FBI know about
science that ordinary USA citizens are not allowed to know about.

I then want the CIA/FBI to suffer for what I perceive as their
"stinginess".

Anyways...

So I guess it is possible to have analog AM cell phones operating
between 40 KHz and 285 KHz that are the same small size as today's
cell phones. Right? If it's not possible then why not? If a wrist
watch can do it, then why not a cell phone?

 
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DTC
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      07-03-2007, 03:11 AM
Radium wrote:
> So I guess it is possible to have analog AM cell phones operating
> between 40 KHz and 285 KHz that are the same small size as today's
> cell phones. Right? If it's not possible then why not? If a wrist
> watch can do it, then why not a cell phone?


If a wrist watch can to what? Transmit a signal? They don't, they only
receive.

 
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DTC
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      07-03-2007, 03:14 AM
Radium wrote:
> So I guess it is possible to have analog AM cell phones operating
> between 40 KHz and 285 KHz that are the same small size as today's
> cell phones. Right? If it's not possible then why not? If a wrist
> watch can do it, then why not a cell phone?


Actually, this thread or logic reminds me of a redneck wanting me to
connect his 40 watt car stereo amplifier to his CB radio 30 years ago.


 
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jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com
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      07-03-2007, 03:15 AM
In rec.radio.amateur.antenna Radium <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

<snip idiocy>

> So I guess it is possible to have analog AM cell phones operating
> between 40 KHz and 285 KHz that are the same small size as today's
> cell phones. Right? If it's not possible then why not? If a wrist
> watch can do it, then why not a cell phone?


Bandwidth, you babbling idiot.

--
Jim Pennino

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