bt connection settings - please check i'm not going mad

hi,

basically the question is this. the service provided by BT called Network
1000 can be *one* of:

1. a dynamic IP address
2. 5 static IP addresses
3. 13 static IP addresses

but it should not be a combination of dynamic IP and static IP
adresses. /

the reason i ask is this.

a client has a BT openworld service called network 1000 Engineer Install.

after logging in to their account at
http://www.btconnect.com/admin/

the product is listed as having a dynamic IP.

when i plug my own router in i can log in over PPPoA and the router is given
a different IP address each time it is restarted.

so far so good.

however, the client ordered an upgrade to their service 2.5 years ago to
Bus 1000+No Nat 5 with Internet Business Pack - which sounds like it means
static IP addresses.

since then they have run their own email server on site - all email is sent
to a particular IP address - and the router connected into to their BT
router has port-forwarded all this email traffic to their email server.

the setup which i assumed they had was the BT router had a static IP - and
when i first went there the gateway/firewall/router plugged into the BT
router had on of the other static IP addresses.

email traffic was sent to this address and was then port-forwarded to the
email server.


so, the situation is currently as follows:

account is listed as dynamic.

when a router is reset it is issued a variety of IP addresses.

all traffic to one particluar IP address is sent down this connection.



it may be that the client has ended up with a mixture of dynamic IP and
static IP.

any help would be gratefully received because currently i can't even can't
even get through to BT tech support to see what they think the account
should have.

thanks,

kev

"kevin bailey" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:dvhjoa$5sk$1$(E-Mail Removed)...
> hi,
>
> basically the question is this. the service provided by BT called Network
> 1000 can be *one* of:
>
> 1. a dynamic IP address
> 2. 5 static IP addresses
> 3. 13 static IP addresses
>
> but it should not be a combination of dynamic IP and static IP
> adresses. /
>
> the reason i ask is this.
>
> a client has a BT openworld service called network 1000 Engineer Install.
>
> after logging in to their account at
> http://www.btconnect.com/admin/
>
> the product is listed as having a dynamic IP.
>
> when i plug my own router in i can log in over PPPoA and the router is
> given
> a different IP address each time it is restarted.
>
> so far so good.
>
> however, the client ordered an upgrade to their service 2.5 years ago to
> Bus 1000+No Nat 5 with Internet Business Pack - which sounds like it means
> static IP addresses.
>
> since then they have run their own email server on site - all email is
> sent
> to a particular IP address - and the router connected into to their BT
> router has port-forwarded all this email traffic to their email server.
>
> the setup which i assumed they had was the BT router had a static IP - and
> when i first went there the gateway/firewall/router plugged into the BT
> router had on of the other static IP addresses.
>
> email traffic was sent to this address and was then port-forwarded to the
> email server.
>
>
> so, the situation is currently as follows:
>
> account is listed as dynamic.
>
> when a router is reset it is issued a variety of IP addresses.
>
> all traffic to one particluar IP address is sent down this connection.
>
>
>
> it may be that the client has ended up with a mixture of dynamic IP and
> static IP.
>
> any help would be gratefully received because currently i can't even can't
> even get through to BT tech support to see what they think the account
> should have.

No great mystery. BT allocate an IP to the router every time it logs in.
Whether this is a static or dynamic IP is totally irrelevant.

The customer has an 8-block and BT route that to whatever IP is allocated
to the router.

Are they paying you for this?

>
> No great mystery. BT allocate an IP to the router every time it logs in.
> Whether this is a static or dynamic IP is totally irrelevant.
>
> The customer has an 8-block and BT route that to whatever IP is allocated
> to the router.
>


ok - sounds plausible.

this is different from my experience with demon where a static IP address is
assigned and that is the external address for the router.

the problem is that the router which they sent as a replacement (a siemens)
seems to have problems and i'd like to try to replace it.

(the LANT and LANR leds are contantly on even when connected to a single PC
- when the PC is disconected the leds are off).

(also, the router is the only hardware change from their previous setup and
now their service is terrible).

but when replacing it with an original BT branded router the static traffic
was not getting through even if it had picked up the dynamic connection ok.

the only way this has worked was when i called an internal number at BT
wholesale and the static traffic went through again.

i haven't tried the
startup_user@startup_domain/ADSL
login which i found in the docs. maybe that will help configure the router
correctly.

currently i've just reset their PPPoA login details.

also, why doesn't their online account show that they have static IP
addresses?



and BTW - please cut out snide remarks - some of us have built unix routers
from parts *without* using easy to use distros such as ipcop and first
started programming on pieces of paper which were converted to punched
cards.

yes, you're *so* smart and yes you probably know more than me about how BT
set up their routers - but that's why i'm asking questions - if you can't
help without throwing insults then don't bother.

i have a client who has students who are having problems taking important
exams. let's work the problem and find an answer for them - what makes
this harder is the non-help from BT themselves.


let me confirm what you are saying.

1. when the router is reset it will pick up a dynamic IP address for it's
own WAN port.

2. all traffic for the static IP addresses which the client has paid for
will be sent down the wire to the router.

3. the routers (BT/alcatel or siemens 5830) will pass through any traffic
for static IP addresses of the client's account to its LAN side where it
can be picked up by routers/gateways or servers.


if so i have two questions.

why doesn't the clients online account show that they have static IP
addresses?

what is the name of the function or protocol which carries out the
passing-through of the IP traffic. is it a simple as a static route or is
is some kind of bridge/half-bridge mode?

"kevin bailey" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:dvhn6j$a6m$1$(E-Mail Removed)...
>>
>> No great mystery. BT allocate an IP to the router every time it logs in.
>> Whether this is a static or dynamic IP is totally irrelevant.
>>
>> The customer has an 8-block and BT route that to whatever IP is allocated
>> to the router.
>>
>
>
> ok - sounds plausible.
>
> this is different from my experience with demon where a static IP address
> is
> assigned and that is the external address for the router.

Some ISPs do it one way, some the other.

> also, why doesn't their online account show that they have static IP
> addresses?

I've no idea - you would have to ask BT.

> and BTW - please cut out snide remarks - some of us have built unix
> routers
> from parts *without* using easy to use distros such as ipcop and first
> started programming on pieces of paper which were converted to punched
> cards.

Yes, some of us did - myself included.

> yes, you're *so* smart and yes you probably know more than me about how BT
> set up their routers - but that's why i'm asking questions - if you can't
> help without throwing insults then don't bother.

I know next to nothing about how BT specifically set things up, I know a
fair bit about IP routing in general.

I'm not meaning to be "snide" - I am trying to help you - but I do think
that your client would have been far better served had you got somebody
in with the relevant experience on day 1.

> i have a client who has students who are having problems taking important
> exams. let's work the problem and find an answer for them - what makes
> this harder is the non-help from BT themselves.

Call in somebody with experience.

> let me confirm what you are saying.
>
> 1. when the router is reset it will pick up a dynamic IP address for it's
> own WAN port.
>
> 2. all traffic for the static IP addresses which the client has paid for
> will be sent down the wire to the router.
>
> 3. the routers (BT/alcatel or siemens 5830) will pass through any traffic
> for static IP addresses of the client's account to its LAN side where it
> can be picked up by routers/gateways or servers.

On point 3 - as long as the router is correctly configured - I have no
specific experience of the Siemens 5830 so can't tell you how to do it, but
I'm sure it's in the manual.

If this had been us, we would have just swapped in a spare router on day 1.

On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 20:00:47 UTC, "Alastair" <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:

> > and BTW - please cut out snide remarks - some of us have built unix
> > routers
> > from parts *without* using easy to use distros such as ipcop and first
> > started programming on pieces of paper which were converted to punched
> > cards.
>
> Yes, some of us did - myself included.

Punched cards...hah! Paper tape....!

--
[ 7'ism - a condition by which the sufferer experiences an inability
to give concise answers, express reasoned argument or opinion.
Usually accompanied by silly noises and gestures - incurable, early
euthanasia recommended. ]

"Bob Eager" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:176uZD2KcidF-pn2-(E-Mail Removed)...
> On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 20:00:47 UTC, "Alastair" <(E-Mail Removed)>
> wrote:
>
>> > and BTW - please cut out snide remarks - some of us have built unix
>> > routers
>> > from parts *without* using easy to use distros such as ipcop and first
>> > started programming on pieces of paper which were converted to punched
>> > cards.
>>
>> Yes, some of us did - myself included.
>
> Punched cards...hah! Paper tape....!

I've used both - in my case cards before tape.

kevin bailey wrote:

> yes, you're *so* smart and yes you probably know more than me about how BT
> set up their routers - but that's why i'm asking questions -

Kevin, it was your starting attack on BT when it was not all them that
got the heckles up. However, whilst abuse seems to be the spirit of
things in usenet it would be nice to actually sort something out for a
change.

I will level with you as regards to BT. Most of the muppets that are
'the adsl engineers' (most and not all) are clueless. They don't really
understand much more than getting a connection to work. What you want to
do with it is usually well out of their depth. The critera for selecting
them when the adsl teams were created was not their network excellence,
but more token issues like their sex or race or if their productivity
was poor. Therefore many can do the monkey things like copy a config
file (and many struggle with that) but as for having understanding much
beyond that level is unlikely. So the first thing is you are pretty muc
on your own in sorting this problem out. You are clearly not stupid and
you have probably worked this out. Do not bank on BT to offer you any
help, BT Broadband is now managed by some outermongolian operation with
an Indian call centre so things look bleak.

There are exceptions. Some folk (like kraftee for example) have a wide
range of skills and go that extra mile to try and work things out, and I
am hoping that he will be able to sus out the pip of your issue.

Let's cover some basic ground here to see if we can get posters here to
help you lick this. First up, The router BT have sent you may be a pile
of crap or it may just be a bit of an arse to set up. It would seem in
fairness that you don't like it and you have no confidence in it so why
not try and pick up something else that you are happy to manage.
Regardless of what BT are paid to do (manage the setup) assume they are
going to do nothing and get on with it yourself.

I cannot be specific on your particular account with BT as it's not
within my area of knowledge. What I can say is if I were in your shoes I
would look at a few things.

On the subject of the static IP's. I would ask myself if I could ping
the mail server from an outside network on the supplied static ip
(assuming that the port forwarding is set up ok). I would then check the
logs of the server to see if I really did ping it or if something else
answered. There may be a much better way that this, but it's where I
would start.

As for the reliabiltiy issue of the router. Unless it's faulty or total
crap it should not have issues with droping connections. This nearly
always comes down to how it is set up. Is it set to disconnect after a
cetain period without autoreconnect? I got had on just that with a BT
account not that long ago after changing a router. If you are getting
issues with connections is it a local issue or is the DSL dropping with
the exchange? The DSL light, as no doubt you know, is the key. It should
always remain solid and not throw spastics every so often. If it does
then that issue needs resolving as a seperate entity.

If your problem was mine I would;

Put on a router I was comfortable with and that had good results and
reviews. I personally like linksys and cisco but we are all different. I
found www.ebuyer.co.uk to be the most useful as many other buyers have
expressed views and experiences with the kit and you can read it before
you buy.

Check that the Static IPs were reaching their intended targets by
looking at log files in the router and machines concerned. Igonre what
the account centre says you have, prove to yourself what you actually have.

Deal with what this throws up. Don't confuse yourself by trying to look
too deep at it, You only need to know what it should do and if it is.
Then go as deep as needed to focus on the area that 'is not' if you like.

I can see your points with the other posts about how poor BT managed
broadband is - however the mxuk sdsl services has fantastic support and
staff that know what they are doing. The downside is the cost,

broadband over BT lines with the right provider is a bloody good product
and rather forgiving. The National Lottery use it throughout the UK for
ticket sales, The NHS use it now in preference to ISDN and a host of
banks and retailers use it for POS stuff. It's that reliable. (You don't
tend to find cable companies trusted with this kind of shit). It may be
useful to have a backup but I think I would spend the money on moving to
a decent provider. Once this is set up properly you should not find any
ongoing issues and the extra cable backup would just be for the paranoid.

I can't help you any deeper than that, I hope someone else can. Don't
give up on it. The connection BT provide is fine, the support is shit.
All you need to do is allow for the crap service and overcome it with
your own expertise - and you will learn by baptism of fire! The
connection portion of it and back end should be as steady as a rock.
Don't loose sight of that.

The best thing you can do is post what you have v what you are trying to
acheive and the problems that you are getting.

Daniel Richardson wrote:

> kevin bailey wrote:
>
>> yes, you're *so* smart and yes you probably know more than me about how
>> BT set up their routers - but that's why i'm asking questions -
>
> Kevin, it was your starting attack on BT when it was not all them that
> got the heckles up. However, whilst abuse seems to be the spirit of
> things in usenet it would be nice to actually sort something out for a
> change.
>

agreed - although it has to be said that my original criticism of BT
[openworld] appears to be justified. i suppose i should have realised that
BT is now separate companies.


> Let's cover some basic ground here to see if we can get posters here to
> help you lick this. First up, The router BT have sent you may be a pile
> of crap or it may just be a bit of an arse to set up.

an engineer brought the replacement router and plugged it in - then input
the ADSL login details.

> It would seem in
> fairness that you don't like it and you have no confidence in it

the connection has been very intermittent - when i was in yesterday i
disconnected everything else on the network and just had my debian laptop
plugged in - the connection was still intermittent.

also - and i can't describe this easily - but plugging into different LAN
ports produced different results - on of them appeared to not work at all.

i agree that a box fresh router should be fine but faith in this replacement
is fairly low.

> so why
> not try and pick up something else that you are happy to manage.

i set up another router which i had spare (billion) and it connected fine -
it was issued with a dynamic IP address - but the traffic for the static
address which is for their email server was not passed through. i would
think this is because the billion does not have soem functions which the
5861 or seimens have or was not set up to pass the traffic through.

>

> On the subject of the static IP's. I would ask myself if I could ping
> the mail server from an outside network on the supplied static ip
> (assuming that the port forwarding is set up ok). I would then check the
> logs of the server to see if I really did ping it or if something else
> answered. There may be a much better way that this, but it's where I
> would start.

its a unix server and i can telnet to it on port 25 and it responds
correctly with its correct name when smtp commands are issued.

so it very much looks like the email traffic for that particular static IP
address is getting through to the next router in (which has been set with
one of the static IP addresses) and it is then being port-forwarded to the
email server.

also, general email for the client is getting through to the server and
there is only one MX (email) record in DNS for the domain.


>
> As for the reliabiltiy issue of the router. Unless it's faulty or total
> crap it should not have issues with droping connections. This nearly
> always comes down to how it is set up. Is it set to disconnect after a
> cetain period without autoreconnect? I got had on just that with a BT
> account not that long ago after changing a router. If you are getting
> issues with connections is it a local issue or is the DSL dropping with
> the exchange? The DSL light, as no doubt you know, is the key. It should
> always remain solid and not throw spastics every so often. If it does
> then that issue needs resolving as a seperate entity.
>

i'll double check the DSL led.

it's difficult to say how the router is set up. i believe BT modify these
routers so that the access is basically limited to entering the ADSL login
details.

i got hold of a 5861 from ebay and it also has this firmware which has been
(understandably) limited by BT.

unfortunately i don't have a serial cable to connect with otherwise i'd be
able to reset the router to its factory defaults and have full control.
this is according to some stuff i found (shortcuts are on laptop which has
been left on-site).

anyway, before looking into getting a correctly set up serial cable i am
still trying to figure out what the setup should be for the router and if
the client's account is set up correctly.

my thinking is that after the client had altered their service BT do not
have them down as having the static IP addresses. therefore, when one of
their routers gets auto configured it only sets itself up with a dynamic IP
address.

after i called an internal number and reopened the case the static address
started working four hours later.

they did admit on one call that the router was set up 'incorrectly' and
should be no-nat which is a feature of their new service but not of the old
one. and they then reconfigured the router remotely. maybe later they set
up the static address pass-through as well.

> If your problem was mine I would;
>
> Put on a router I was comfortable with and that had good results and
> reviews. I personally like linksys and cisco but we are all different. I
> found www.ebuyer.co.uk to be the most useful as many other buyers have
> expressed views and experiences with the kit and you can read it before
> you buy.
>
> Check that the Static IPs were reaching their intended targets by
> looking at log files in the router and machines concerned. Igonre what
> the account centre says you have, prove to yourself what you actually
> have.
>


completely agree.

this is where i need some help.

i have mainly worked with single static IP addresses from demon on wires
only service where the static IP address is assigned to the WAN side of a
router.

where i've come across BT routers i've not had to touch them because the
static IP traffic is passed through to another router which acts as the
main gateway for the LAN.

is it correct that in BT's openworld network 1000 Engineer Install product
with 5 static addresses that the router picks up its own dynamic WAN IP
address - and then that the traffic for the static IP addresses is passed
down the wire and the router passes this traffic through to its LAN side
where it can be picked up by another router or server?

by what mechanism is this traffic passed through - half-bridged mode, simple
routing or?

what model of linksys - or any other router - is capable of carrying out
this pass-through of the static IP traffic. i want to make sure that i'm
trying to get it working with a model which is known to work.

(i could get a serial cable and gain full control over the 5861 which should
do the job - but i want to try to get hold of openworld first to see if the
have the account details for the client correct).

but in the meantime i'd be happy to pick up a linksys and try it because
getting hold of openworld has been the main problem.

by what mechanism is the static IP traffic passed through from the WAN port
to the LAN side? - simple routing or something else?

i suppose i can find this on the web but since i'm answering i thought i'd
ask.

> broadband over BT lines with the right provider is a bloody good product
> and rather forgiving. The National Lottery use it throughout the UK for
> ticket sales, The NHS use it now in preference to ISDN and a host of
> banks and retailers use it for POS stuff. It's that reliable. (You don't
> tend to find cable companies trusted with this kind of shit). It may be
> useful to have a backup but I think I would spend the money on moving to
> a decent provider. Once this is set up properly you should not find any
> ongoing issues and the extra cable backup would just be for the paranoid.
>

ok i agree - i suppose *all* ADSL is provided via a part of BT and that part
works well. i should really focus on BT openworld which has not been up to
the job when it was needed.

> I can't help you any deeper than that, I hope someone else can. Don't
> give up on it. The connection BT provide is fine, the support is shit.
> All you need to do is allow for the crap service and overcome it with
> your own expertise - and you will learn by baptism of fire! The
> connection portion of it and back end should be as steady as a rock.
> Don't loose sight of that.
>
> The best thing you can do is post what you have v what you are trying to
> acheive and the problems that you are getting.

thanks,

kev

> by what mechanism is this traffic passed through - half-bridged mode,
> simple
> routing or?

It's just a static route ... the static assigned range via the WAN address
issued by RADIUS.

Chris.

chris wrote:

>
>> by what mechanism is this traffic passed through - half-bridged mode,
>> simple
>> routing or?
>
> It's just a static route ... the static assigned range via the WAN address
> issued by RADIUS.
>
> Chris.

thanks