BT cock-up? ... Plusnet BB issue

I have a 'friend' who has (had) 2 telephone lines going to her house.
One was originally for dial-up internet computer use, one was for normal
voice use.

She decided to use the computer line for her ADSL number.
We ordered adsl via Plusnet, and the order subsequently went through.

In the interim, BT informed her there was a "major cable fault" that
provided the numbers/lines to her house. Both lines were taken out of
service by BT at the beginning of June.

She was offered compensation of £1 a day by BT, but still had to use her
mobile phone and finance the cost of those calls herself.

Plusnet progressed the adsl order (we informed them there was a fault on
the line) and subsequently told us that activation had taken place, and
all was well. Concern was expressed to Plusnet by us at the time, as
obviously it wasn't due to BT having taken the line out of service.

How could BT have activated broadband on a line that had (to all intents
and purposes) been ripped out of the ground, and how could Plusnet have
actually been able to place an order on a line that wasn't currently
functional?

One of her numbers has today (3 weeks later) been restored, but the
other, the ADSL activated one is down indefinitely (say BT)

They cannot give her any indication when the 2nd line will again be
working.

She is now paying £24.99 a month to Plusnet for ADSL she can't possibly
use, and i doubt (although we haven't asked) if Plusnet will 'pause' the
account until such time as she can.

What, if any, compensation can she claim off BT?

Can she cancel the ADSL with Plusnet until such time as she can actually
have her 2nd line back?

It's impractical for her to use the now working line for the computer,
as she lives in a *huge* house, the telephone point being some way from
her computer room. That is why she had a second line installed
originally (a few years ago) so that internet access was available to
the PC.

In article <(E-Mail Removed)> ,
Tx2 <tx2newscollection-invalid-@hotmail.com> wrote:
> It's impractical for her to use the now working line for the computer,=20
> as she lives in a *huge* house, the telephone point being some way from=20
> her computer room.

Stick a wireless router on the end of the phone line, and a wireless
card into the PC. Total cost is about 150 quid. If the house is the
size of a football stadium, she might need a directional aerial on the
base station, for about another fifty quid. She'll get payback in a few
years because of only needing one telephone line. If she wants to make
voice calls on both lines occasionally, broadband voice is 6.50 a month,
or there are many alternatives.

ian

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Tx2 wrote:
> I have a 'friend' who has (had) 2 telephone lines going to her house.
> One was originally for dial-up internet computer use, one was for normal
> voice use.
>
> She decided to use the computer line for her ADSL number.
> We ordered adsl via Plusnet, and the order subsequently went through.
>
> In the interim, BT informed her there was a "major cable fault" that
> provided the numbers/lines to her house. Both lines were taken out of
> service by BT at the beginning of June.
>
> She was offered compensation of £1 a day by BT, but still had to use her
> mobile phone and finance the cost of those calls herself.
>
> Plusnet progressed the adsl order (we informed them there was a fault on
> the line) and subsequently told us that activation had taken place, and
> all was well. Concern was expressed to Plusnet by us at the time, as
> obviously it wasn't due to BT having taken the line out of service.
>
> How could BT have activated broadband on a line that had (to all intents
> and purposes) been ripped out of the ground, and how could Plusnet have
> actually been able to place an order on a line that wasn't currently
> functional?
>
> One of her numbers has today (3 weeks later) been restored, but the
> other, the ADSL activated one is down indefinitely (say BT)
>
> They cannot give her any indication when the 2nd line will again be
> working.
>
> She is now paying £24.99 a month to Plusnet for ADSL she can't possibly
> use, and i doubt (although we haven't asked) if Plusnet will 'pause' the
> account until such time as she can.
>
> What, if any, compensation can she claim off BT?
>
> Can she cancel the ADSL with Plusnet until such time as she can actually
> have her 2nd line back?
>
> It's impractical for her to use the now working line for the computer,
> as she lives in a *huge* house, the telephone point being some way from
> her computer room. That is why she had a second line installed
> originally (a few years ago) so that internet access was available to
> the PC.

Basically, the line is provisioned at the exchange but physically broken
in between there and the premises. It is no problem for an ISP to have
broadband provisioned on such a line as the work is all done at the
exchange and it is an "active" line.

This issue is that there is a fault on the line, and this is no
different to a line that was working and has broadband getting a fault
at a later date.

BT still charge plusnet for the circuit! They are probably still
charging your friend line rental for the telephone line as well, but
giving the compensation.

- From plusnets point of view, any fault that is due to a PSTN fault has
to be reported via BT PSTN faults by the end user and is (strangely, I
know) not regarded as an ADSL fault. So plusnet are pretty powerless to
help.

If it was us as the ISP we would indeed argue with BT that a line that
is not connected due to a BT fault is not connected, full stop, and as
such compensation to plusnet (which is peanuts on broadband lines by the
way) should ensue for the duration of the fault. They could also argue
that due to the PSTN fault the ADSL has not in fact been provisioned
(even though all provision work related to the broadband service, and
any fault work that would be done relating to the broadband service
(i.e. none), has in fact been completed). BT may not see it like that,
but that is not an issue for your friend... Plusnet may well be taking
up these points with BT anyway. Her issue is with plusnet, and she can
reasonably argue that the service has not in fact been installed with
them and so *not* be paying them for the service ordered.

Also, there are distance selling directive time scales (although quite
short ones if notified of them) which apply, but would normally stop
applying once the service is in fact provided. If it is within the
distance selling directive time scales and the service has not been
provided, she can cancel with plusnet with no costs at all to them.
Worth checking. If not advised of these timescales, then they are much
longer, so may still be in force.

Fortunately her contract with plusnet is a consumer contract and subject
to various "reasonableness" tests on any contract clauses, so she would
have (IMHO) a good case (IANAL). Plusnet's contract with BT is not
subject to such tests (commercial contracts are allowed to be
"unreasonable", and BTs are indeed so, IMHO). So, sadly for plusnet,
they are likely to be the ones that lose.

Talk to plusnet!

- --
Rev Adrian Kennard
Andrews & Arnold Ltd / AAISP www.aaisp.net.uk

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In article <cbhfqo$cp8$(E-Mail Removed)>, (E-Mail Removed),
a.k.a Ian G Batten says...


> Stick a wireless router on the end of the phone line, and a wireless
> card into the PC. Total cost is about 150 quid. If the house is the
> size of a football stadium, she might need a directional aerial on the
> base station, for about another fifty quid. She'll get payback in a few
> years because of only needing one telephone line. If she wants to make
> voice calls on both lines occasionally, broadband voice is 6.50 a month,
> or there are many alternatives.

What good would a wireless router be on the line with no ADSL?

She's currently (and temporarily) trailing several dozen metres of phone
extension cable around the house so she can at the very least have dial-
up. Given that she now only connects at 28.8, it's highly impractical.

Why should she have to fork out additional £'s to 'counter-balance'
someone else's cock-up?

It still doesn't solve the issue of having adsl on a line that isn't
serviceable, and wasn't active when the order was finalised.

If BT can't provide the line (or an adsl service) is she obliged to
continue paying Plusnet??

On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 16:14:01 +0100, Tx2
<tx2newscollection-invalid-@hotmail.com> wrote:

>One of her numbers has today (3 weeks later) been restored, but the=20
>other, the ADSL activated one is down indefinitely (say BT)
>
>They cannot give her any indication when the 2nd line will again be=20
>working.

Assuming you actually want this line working again escalate the matter
with BT to get answers as to when they plan to resolve the matter.
"Indefinitely" makes no sense to anyone.

When talking to BT focus on getting a working analogue line - don't
confuse them with the broadband enabled on it. BT ultimately pay yo
compensation and their customer service guarantee isn't too bad.

--
Hiram Hackenbacker

On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 16:35:27 +0100, Tx2
<tx2newscollection-invalid-@hotmail.com> wrote:

>If BT can't provide the line (or an adsl service) is she obliged to=20
>continue paying Plusnet??

Yes she must pay, her broadband contract is with Plusnet - the real
problem is with a faulty analogue line.

However when agreeing compensation with BT they will, assuming the
analogue line isn't fixed, agree an ex-gratia sum to cover the Plusnet
costs. However you will need to create a suitable paper audit trail
to provide the necessary evidence.

--
Hiram Hackenbacker

"Tx2" <tx2newscollection-invalid-@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed) t
> In the interim, BT informed her there was a "major cable fault" that
> provided the numbers/lines to her house. Both lines were taken out of
> service by BT at the beginning of June.
>(snip)
> One of her numbers has today (3 weeks later) been restored, but the
> other, the ADSL activated one is down indefinitely (say BT)
>
> They cannot give her any indication when the 2nd line will again be
> working.

A side issue but if your friend does not take up the "divert incoming"
calls* option that BT Faults offer - than the compensation payments for the
2nd line will be much higher than £1/day.

I presume the faulty "computer line" doesn't actually get (m)any incoming
calls anyway..

See http://www.bt.com/customerservices/d..._guarantee.pdf

*on the other hand if the "divert option" is taken up I believe
compensations payments are slightly higher if diverted to a mobile than if
not.

Regards
Sunil

In article <(E-Mail Removed)> ,
Tx2 <tx2newscollection-invalid-@hotmail.com> wrote:
> What good would a wireless router be on the line with no ADSL?

I presumed that BT would be prepared to shift DSL from circuit X to
circuit Y if they were from the same exchange to the same premises under
the circumstances. My experience of BT is that if you start proposing
solutions, they get done.

> She's currently (and temporarily) trailing several dozen metres of phone=20
> extension cable around the house so she can at the very least have dial-
> up. Given that she now only connects at 28.8, it's highly impractical.

Well, you _could_ pick up a Netgear RM356 Modem router on EBay, and an
MA102 or similar access point, and project the V.92 modem out over
802.11b. I have done this on one occasion and it appeared to work.

> If BT can't provide the line (or an adsl service) is she obliged to=20
> continue paying Plusnet??

One option would be to stop paying and let them sue: it's unlikely
they'd win --- that their contract to supply is backed off to BT isn't
her problem, and she would simply argue that she's paying Plusnet for a
service they're not providing (IANAL). However, once you get to that
position, everyone is getting aggressive and the real problem you're
trying to solve gets lost in the posturing.

Ask Plusnet if they can get the line swung from one circuit to the
other, and help with then linking that over to the location the service
is required. Don't shout, rant, posture, engage in rhetoric: make it
clear that _you're_ trying to be helpful, and let them be unreasonable.

Do that, and it'll be sorted.

On the other hand, wind up a ``fucking BT, they're just shafting me''
conspiracy rave and you'll get nothing but grief.

ian

In article <cbhi6g$db4$(E-Mail Removed)>, (E-Mail Removed),
a.k.a Ian G Batten says...

[snip very helpful advice]

> Don't shout, rant, posture, engage in rhetoric: make it
> clear that _you're_ trying to be helpful, and let them be unreasonable.

I tried to be helpful with Plusnet on another ADSL issue, for another
customer, and it all went 'wrong'. I don't do helpful anymore. Too many
damn netcops.

I'm now communicating with an automated "Contact Us" at Plusnet.
Most engaging.

> On the other hand, wind up a ``fucking BT, they're just shafting me''
> conspiracy rave and you'll get nothing but grief

But they are, bastards ;-)

In article <(E-Mail Removed)> ,
Tx2 <tx2newscollection-invalid-@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Don't shout, rant, posture, engage in rhetoric: make it
> > clear that _you're_ trying to be helpful, and let them be unreasonable.
>
> I tried to be helpful with Plusnet on another ADSL issue, for another
> customer, and it all went 'wrong'. I don't do helpful anymore. Too many
> damn netcops.

Then you've lost. Or at least, all you'll get is your contractual
position, no more.

ian