Broadband router with ISDN fallback (that actually works) ?

The Draytek 2900Gi certainly doesn't work properly on ISDN. Loading
new firmware off draytek.co.uk made it almost work (previously the
ISDN feature was almost totally dead) but it still hangs after
200-500k of continuous data. This happens whether the PC is connected
via wifi, or ethernet.

I am sending it back for a replacement but frankly I don't believe
it's going to make any difference - what sort of hardware fault could
account for this?



Peter.
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On Wed, 01 Sep 2004 16:58:09 +0100, (E-Mail Removed) (Peter) wrote:

>ISDN feature was almost totally dead) but it still hangs after
>200-500k of continuous data.

"network death" like this is not unheard of, try turnng off software
compression (if available) and also try dialling into a couple of PAYG
ISPs to see if the problem is common to all ISPs or just your current
one.

Phil

Phil Thompson <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote

>On Wed, 01 Sep 2004 16:58:09 +0100, (E-Mail Removed) (Peter) wrote:
>
>>ISDN feature was almost totally dead) but it still hangs after
>>200-500k of continuous data.
>
>"network death" like this is not unheard of, try turnng off software
>compression (if available) and also try dialling into a couple of PAYG
>ISPs to see if the problem is common to all ISPs or just your current
>one.

It isn't the ISP. This is a summary of the problem which I have typed
up for Draytek:

I don't think it has ever worked properly, but it hasn't caused
problems because very few people test it. Most of these routers are
used for ADSL only and once people get that going, they might never
check whether ISDN works fully.

I got a new 2900Gi the other day. I don't have ADSL yet so have been
testing it over ISDN, on which a Cisco 803 has worked faultlessly for
a few years, nonstop.

I never got past a few k before it would hang up. The tech support man
has been very good and suggested new firmware. This made it work but I
still can't get past roughly 400k in one lump. It is OK for website
browsing but as soon as one tries a download of say 1 meg it never
makes it.

The www session just hangs and never recovers. However starting
another copy of IE6 works fine, so it doesn't look like an ISDN
lockup. Also another PC connected to the router works fine (although
that itself will also lock up in the same way eventually). The problem
is same whether the PCs are connected over wifi or ethernet.

So it looks like an internal bug in the router.

The tech support man is out of ideas and suggested I get another one,
which I am doing. However, I have designed at least a hundred embedded
products (software and hardware) over 25 years and can't see what this
could be other than a firmware bug.



Peter.
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On Wed, 01 Sep 2004 20:15:51 +0100, (E-Mail Removed) (Peter) wrote:

>It isn't the ISP.

you've tried it on another ? I'm not saying its a fundamental property
of your ISP but it could be an interoperability issue between the kit
they use and your device, which may not aplpy with another ISPs kit.

As you say its probably a firmware or config issue but I have
experienced the same from time to time, sometimes only when using
compression.

It sounds like something related to large packets or a buffer filling
up.

Phil
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Peter wrote:
>
> The www session just hangs and never recovers. However starting
> another copy of IE6 works fine, so it doesn't look like an ISDN
> lockup. Also another PC connected to the router works fine (although
> that itself will also lock up in the same way eventually). The problem
> is same whether the PCs are connected over wifi or ethernet.
>
> So it looks like an internal bug in the router.
>
> The tech support man is out of ideas and suggested I get another one,
> which I am doing. However, I have designed at least a hundred embedded
> products (software and hardware) over 25 years and can't see what this
> could be other than a firmware bug.
>

How about you didnt set it up correctly. Did you rtfm? Or try a
different browser like opera or firefox? What about different protocols
like ftp or nntp? Does a pc to pc transfer work ok? Have you disabled
the firewall? Are you using nat?

sarah <postmaster@127.0.0.1> wrote

>Peter wrote:
>>
>> The www session just hangs and never recovers. However starting
>> another copy of IE6 works fine, so it doesn't look like an ISDN
>> lockup. Also another PC connected to the router works fine (although
>> that itself will also lock up in the same way eventually). The problem
>> is same whether the PCs are connected over wifi or ethernet.
>>
>> So it looks like an internal bug in the router.
>>
>> The tech support man is out of ideas and suggested I get another one,
>> which I am doing. However, I have designed at least a hundred embedded
>> products (software and hardware) over 25 years and can't see what this
>> could be other than a firmware bug.
>>
>
>How about you didnt set it up correctly. Did you rtfm? Or try a
>different browser like opera or firefox? What about different protocols
>like ftp or nntp? Does a pc to pc transfer work ok? Have you disabled
>the firewall? Are you using nat?

Please kindly read what I said... "The tech support man is out of
ideas and suggested I get another one". I have spoken to him 10-20
times. He is pretty good, but suggested I return it for a replacement.

It happens on different laptops, with different applications.
Basically, once the amount of data reaches a certain point, it stops
flowing. But other sessions on the same PC, even using the same app,
work fine even though the original session is frozen.

NAT is used, certainly, not a lot of point of a NAT router with NAT
disabled.

I have not been able to get one PC to see another - that is a separate
matter to do with networking which I haven't gone into yet. I could
try connecting both PCs using ethernet - that should work fine because
they see each other via a hub or a switch, and the ethernet ports on
the back of a 2900 are a switch.



Peter.
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Phil Thompson <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote

>you've tried it on another ? I'm not saying its a fundamental property
>of your ISP but it could be an interoperability issue between the kit
>they use and your device, which may not aplpy with another ISPs kit.

It could be, in which case what do I do? My Cisco routers have worked
with every one of about 5 ISPs I played with over the years, without a
hitch, in two different locations. The ISP is Clara, and if Draytek
routers don't work with Clara then where do we go from there?

How can it be the ISP, when the ISDN link level doesn't see individual
application sessions, and those do work even when one or more have
locked up. And if it isn't an ISDN incompatibility, how would the
Cisco router work OK?

In fact I would have gone the "expensive" route without a moment's
thought. The extra few hundred quid is utterly nothing compared with
the cost of a week of my time. The reason I didn't is because Cisco
IOS config is complicated enough even for a very simple set-up
(especially if you want to prevent e.g. Blaster keeping the ISDN line
up) and I am after ADSL/ISDN fallback, VPN, wifi, and various other
great features which the Draytek product has. All these could be done
with Cisco routers, switches, VPN firewalls, all I would need to do is
employ a Cisco certified engineer for a couple of weeks And then
get him back for another week if you want to change something.

Whereas on the Draytek, apparently, one can do all this just by
clicking on items in the www configuration screen. It's very
impressive, well integrated, and so far it seems to work. I haven't
yet found a fault in the basic functions - except this locking up of
sessions.


Peter.
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On 01 Sep 2004 in uk.telecom.broadband, Peter wrote:

> The ISP is Clara,

For what its worth, my Hypertec router never worked with Clara,
nor did a friend who also bought one (new units, from Hypertec,
via Ebay). An ISDN PCI card worked fine though. Peter Morgan.

Peter wrote:
>
> Please kindly read what I said... "The tech support man is out of
> ideas and suggested I get another one". I have spoken to him 10-20
> times. He is pretty good, but suggested I return it for a replacement.
>
> It happens on different laptops, with different applications.
> Basically, once the amount of data reaches a certain point, it stops
> flowing. But other sessions on the same PC, even using the same app,
> work fine even though the original session is frozen.
>
> NAT is used, certainly, not a lot of point of a NAT router with NAT
> disabled.
>
> I have not been able to get one PC to see another - that is a separate
> matter to do with networking which I haven't gone into yet. I could
> try connecting both PCs using ethernet - that should work fine because
> they see each other via a hub or a switch, and the ethernet ports on
> the back of a 2900 are a switch.
>

For a moment there, I thought the whole problem was a networking
problem, but you seem to think thats a seperate matter. I agree with the
tech support man, get another one, that'll fix it. It amazes me that
after 25 years you know nothing about troubleshooting.

sarah <postmaster@127.0.0.1> wrote

>For a moment there, I thought the whole problem was a networking
>problem, but you seem to think thats a seperate matter. I agree with the
>tech support man, get another one, that'll fix it. It amazes me that
>after 25 years you know nothing about troubleshooting.

Can you please re-phrase the above so I can understand it. Are you
being cynical? I have already updated the firmware and it is hard to
think of a *hardware* fault which would cause the behaviour seen.

I don't know what you do for a living but, unfortunately, the nature
of consumer electronics (which these products fall under nowadays) is
that a lot of it simply doesn't work. It is pretty frequent for the CD
in the box to be no good so one has to download drivers right away.

Example: I've just spent 4 hours on the phone to Linksys "support"
(located in the Philippines) on a compactflash wifi card and their
procedure is

#1 download new PC software from www.linksys.com
#2 download new PC software from ftp.linksys.com
#3 update the firmware (if applicable)
#4 actually look at the problem and think about what it might be, but
for this you need "level two support" and they tell you to send it
back. This buys them another few weeks...

If it wasn't for the routine casualness with which manufacturers ship
products with known bugs, I would do the logical thing and assume that
the product is fine and it must be a configuration issue, interface
issue, or whatever. But these days that is the wrong approach because
most often the product doesn't work to start with, and the
manufacturer knew it. So one has to do "troubleshooting" upside down.


Peter.
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