Broadband line problems - free beer/wine on offer!

Hi all,

Hope some guru here can offer some advice, I'm tearing my hair out with this
one.
I been trying to help someone I know sort out a problem with AOL (I know I
should have refused but a friend in need.... etc) for the last 2 weeks.

I'll happily send the person who solves this problem or who can at least
point me in the right direction some beer or wine (or a big box of
chocolates if you don't drink) - gratis.
Until a month ago everything was fine. It's quite a rural area so speeds
aren't great but sufficient.
Then all of a sudden he kept getting a 'Network Cable Unplugged' message
after a few minutes of being signed in. The really strange thing is that it
is as solid as a rock between 2 and 5 am (we tested this 3 nights running)
but come the daylight the problems start again.

The only thing that changed when this started happening is a neighbour
opposite has additional lines installed for business purposes. Coincidence?

I have nothing against the guys on AOL support - they do try their best -
but I want to get this escalated upwards as it must be the line or exchange,
mustn't it? Tried numerous line tests, including leaving everything connect
for 48 hours but to no avail.

Tried 3 different computers and 2 different modems and a router on the
master socket and on extension with the same results.
Sometimes it stops at the initializing modem stage and sometimes at the
checking password stage.
The night time stability is on an extension socket.

Any ideas greatly appreciated.

relkeel

"relkeel" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:eh2lee$172$(E-Mail Removed)...
> Hi all,
>
> Hope some guru here can offer some advice, I'm tearing my hair out with
> this one.
> I been trying to help someone I know sort out a problem with AOL (I know I
> should have refused but a friend in need.... etc) for the last 2 weeks.
>
> I'll happily send the person who solves this problem or who can at least
> point me in the right direction some beer or wine (or a big box of
> chocolates if you don't drink) - gratis.
> Until a month ago everything was fine. It's quite a rural area so speeds
> aren't great but sufficient.
> Then all of a sudden he kept getting a 'Network Cable Unplugged' message
> after a few minutes of being signed in. The really strange thing is that
> it is as solid as a rock between 2 and 5 am (we tested this 3 nights
> running) but come the daylight the problems start again.
>
> The only thing that changed when this started happening is a neighbour
> opposite has additional lines installed for business purposes.
> Coincidence?
>
> I have nothing against the guys on AOL support - they do try their best -
> but I want to get this escalated upwards as it must be the line or
> exchange, mustn't it? Tried numerous line tests, including leaving
> everything connect for 48 hours but to no avail.
>
> Tried 3 different computers and 2 different modems and a router on the
> master socket and on extension with the same results.
> Sometimes it stops at the initializing modem stage and sometimes at the
> checking password stage.
> The night time stability is on an extension socket.
>
> Any ideas greatly appreciated.
>
> relkeel
>

You say it works between 2 and 5 am. What changed at 5am? Central
heating/Water Heating come on? Neighbours turned on lights, etc.
Might be worth running this test again, but watching out for external signs
of something happening, as suggested above, but could be anything.

HTH

J

"Maneate" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>
> "relkeel" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:eh2lee$172$(E-Mail Removed)...
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Hope some guru here can offer some advice, I'm tearing my hair out with
>> this one.
>> I been trying to help someone I know sort out a problem with AOL (I know
>> I should have refused but a friend in need.... etc) for the last 2 weeks.
>>
>> I'll happily send the person who solves this problem or who can at least
>> point me in the right direction some beer or wine (or a big box of
>> chocolates if you don't drink) - gratis.
>> Until a month ago everything was fine. It's quite a rural area so speeds
>> aren't great but sufficient.
>> Then all of a sudden he kept getting a 'Network Cable Unplugged' message
>> after a few minutes of being signed in. The really strange thing is that
>> it is as solid as a rock between 2 and 5 am (we tested this 3 nights
>> running) but come the daylight the problems start again.
>>
>> The only thing that changed when this started happening is a neighbour
>> opposite has additional lines installed for business purposes.
>> Coincidence?
>>
>> I have nothing against the guys on AOL support - they do try their best -
>> but I want to get this escalated upwards as it must be the line or
>> exchange, mustn't it? Tried numerous line tests, including leaving
>> everything connect for 48 hours but to no avail.
>>
>> Tried 3 different computers and 2 different modems and a router on the
>> master socket and on extension with the same results.
>> Sometimes it stops at the initializing modem stage and sometimes at the
>> checking password stage.
>> The night time stability is on an extension socket.
>>
>> Any ideas greatly appreciated.
>>
>> relkeel
>>
>
> You say it works between 2 and 5 am. What changed at 5am? Central
> heating/Water Heating come on? Neighbours turned on lights, etc.
> Might be worth running this test again, but watching out for external
> signs of something happening, as suggested above, but could be anything.
>
> HTH
>
> J
>
Thanks for the prompt reply J.
I was generalising a bit about the time it works as I wasn't prepared to sit
up all night for a whole week but tried at various times between midnight
and six 3 nights running.
I'm intrigued as the how heating or lighting being switched on could cause
the problem - never heard of that one before - but I'll check anyway -
thanks.
relkeel

"relkeel" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:eh2mba$1lt$(E-Mail Removed)...
>
> Thanks for the prompt reply J.
> I was generalising a bit about the time it works as I wasn't prepared to
> sit up all night for a whole week but tried at various times between
> midnight and six 3 nights running.
> I'm intrigued as the how heating or lighting being switched on could cause
> the problem - never heard of that one before - but I'll check anyway -
> thanks.
> relkeel
>

I work for a telecomms co and the suggestion is based on a real life
experiences. I'll give 2 instances.

1: Many years back we had a problem where one of our customers had their
switch fail everyday at exactly the same time, 6:30 in the morning if I
recall correctly, but only on weekdays, and when nobody was there. In this
case it always restarted, but no one could work out why it kept happening as
it all tested OK by the time engineers got to the site. Anyway, after this
happened for a few weeks, a field engineer arranged a meeting with the
customer on site before the time the problem used to occur. They were both
sat in the switch room with a coffee and at 6:30 the switch failed. Just as
all the office lights on that floor were turned on by a timer. They found
the lights had been rewired recently and put on the same 'clean' circuit as
the switch, and when they were turned on they caused the switch to restart.

2: Second one was where a customer had severe interference on their line,
but only in the evenings. Took ages to track down, but eventually a field
engineer traced it to a neighbour who had put up some outside lights and
nicked the telephone cable serving his neighbour with one of the screws.
When the lights came on they set up some sort of interference on the line.
Removed the screw and solved the problem.

J

relkeel wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Hope some guru here can offer some advice, I'm tearing my hair out with this
> one.
> I been trying to help someone I know sort out a problem with AOL (I know I
> should have refused but a friend in need.... etc) for the last 2 weeks.
>
> I'll happily send the person who solves this problem or who can at least
> point me in the right direction some beer or wine (or a big box of
> chocolates if you don't drink) - gratis.
> Until a month ago everything was fine. It's quite a rural area so speeds
> aren't great but sufficient.
> Then all of a sudden he kept getting a 'Network Cable Unplugged' message
> after a few minutes of being signed in. The really strange thing is that it
> is as solid as a rock between 2 and 5 am (we tested this 3 nights running)
> but come the daylight the problems start again.
>
> The only thing that changed when this started happening is a neighbour
> opposite has additional lines installed for business purposes. Coincidence?
>

Not necessarily. If the neighbour has new digital services
(DSL/ISDN) running over the same BT cable, then crosstalk
noise could be causing interference. If the service was
already marginal, the extra noise could be enough to
increase the error rate during the hours when the
neighbour's DSL line is active.

Of course, any interference could be from other sources.
It's also possible the line was "disturbed" during
installation at a pole serving both premises.

> I have nothing against the guys on AOL support - they do try their best -
> but I want to get this escalated upwards as it must be the line or exchange,
> mustn't it? Tried numerous line tests, including leaving everything connect
> for 48 hours but to no avail.
>
> Tried 3 different computers and 2 different modems and a router on the
> master socket and on extension with the same results.
> Sometimes it stops at the initializing modem stage and sometimes at the
> checking password stage.
> The night time stability is on an extension socket.
>

Try checking the statistics on the router/modem. This
should give an indication of noise levels on the line
(assuming it can get connected). It should also indicate
the levels of loss on the line - I have seen it stated that
lines with more than 60dB loss are susceptible to crosstalk
impairments. If nothing else, it will give some stats to
quote to the ISP.

It may be possible to run a log with regular measurements,
so you don't need to stay up late.

relkeel expressed precisely :

> Then all of a sudden he kept getting a 'Network Cable Unplugged' message
> after a few minutes of being signed in.

.....surely a "network cable unplugged" message is on the LAN-side, not
WAN-side of the router...?

Have you tried new cables?

"Jono" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed). ..
> relkeel expressed precisely :
>
>> Then all of a sudden he kept getting a 'Network Cable Unplugged' message
>> after a few minutes of being signed in.
>
> ....surely a "network cable unplugged" message is on the LAN-side, not
> WAN-side of the router...?
>
> Have you tried new cables?
>
>

Yes I have - it's a BT Voyager 105 modem set up. I completely replaced the
set up with identical that I know works.
As I said, I've tried this on several laptops and desktops with the same
result. :-(

r

"JW" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> relkeel wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Hope some guru here can offer some advice, I'm tearing my hair out with
>> this one.
>> I been trying to help someone I know sort out a problem with AOL (I know
>> I should have refused but a friend in need.... etc) for the last 2 weeks.
>>
>> I'll happily send the person who solves this problem or who can at least
>> point me in the right direction some beer or wine (or a big box of
>> chocolates if you don't drink) - gratis.
>> Until a month ago everything was fine. It's quite a rural area so speeds
>> aren't great but sufficient.
>> Then all of a sudden he kept getting a 'Network Cable Unplugged' message
>> after a few minutes of being signed in. The really strange thing is that
>> it is as solid as a rock between 2 and 5 am (we tested this 3 nights
>> running) but come the daylight the problems start again.
>>
>> The only thing that changed when this started happening is a neighbour
>> opposite has additional lines installed for business purposes.
>> Coincidence?
>>
>
> Not necessarily. If the neighbour has new digital services (DSL/ISDN)
> running over the same BT cable, then crosstalk noise could be causing
> interference. If the service was already marginal, the extra noise could
> be enough to increase the error rate during the hours when the neighbour's
> DSL line is active.
>
> Of course, any interference could be from other sources. It's also
> possible the line was "disturbed" during installation at a pole serving
> both premises.

The lines for my friend and his neighbour DO come off the same pole -
seems too much of a coincidence that the problems started when this work was
done.
However, can I get AOL to get an engineer out - can I hell.
As far as they (Mumbai anyway) are concerned everything is fine!

>
>> I have nothing against the guys on AOL support - they do try their best -
>> but I want to get this escalated upwards as it must be the line or
>> exchange, mustn't it? Tried numerous line tests, including leaving
>> everything connect for 48 hours but to no avail.
>>
>> Tried 3 different computers and 2 different modems and a router on the
>> master socket and on extension with the same results.
>> Sometimes it stops at the initializing modem stage and sometimes at the
>> checking password stage.
>> The night time stability is on an extension socket.
>>
>
> Try checking the statistics on the router/modem. This should give an
> indication of noise levels on the line (assuming it can get connected).
> It should also indicate the levels of loss on the line - I have seen it
> stated that lines with more than 60dB loss are susceptible to crosstalk
> impairments. If nothing else, it will give some stats to quote to the
> ISP.

I have made a note of these figures during the day but not at night
yet - not really sure what I should expect.
It reported the following:
Local Remote
Attenuation 46 27
SNR 16 12

>
> It may be possible to run a log with regular measurements, so you don't
> need to stay up late.
>
>

I might just get my friend to migrate to BT - at least we could then
actually talk to those who control the lines - or am I being naive?
However, I'll give your suggestions a try first.
Thanks for your help

r

>
> I might just get my friend to migrate to BT - at least we could then
> actually talk to those who control the lines - or am I being naive?


Yes - very, very naive!!! BT's technical support is probably the worst of
all UK ISPs - their Indians are certainly no better than anybody elses!

Change to Zen, who at least seem to have some sort of communication with BT
so they can get a knowledgeable BT technician to attend to your problem.

And I have seen the crosstalk issue myself. Two pairs in same cable running
the length of a long driveway to the BT junction at the roadside. One pair
goes to house, where there is a broadband service which is actually not in
use. Other pair goes to office in garden. Here the router repeatedly
resets - yet the signal level and noise margins look OK. Set up a spare
router on ADSL service in the house - office router now solidly reliable.
BT technician suspected that the unterminated ADSL service to the house
repeatedly tried to initialise a non-existant router which entailed
generating very large signals on the line. Once a router was connected the
initialisation sequence was never repeated.

Interesting - this was guesswork on the part of the BT technician - none of
his diagnostic tools gave him a clue!

--
Graham

relkeel formulated on Tuesday :
> "Jono" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:(E-Mail Removed). ..
>> relkeel expressed precisely :
>>
>>> Then all of a sudden he kept getting a 'Network Cable Unplugged' message
>>> after a few minutes of being signed in.
>>
>> ....surely a "network cable unplugged" message is on the LAN-side, not
>> WAN-side of the router...?
>>
>> Have you tried new cables?
>>
>>
>
> Yes I have - it's a BT Voyager 105 modem set up. I completely replaced the
> set up with identical that I know works.
> As I said, I've tried this on several laptops and desktops with the same
> result. :-(
>
> r

I've never seen the "network cable unplugged" message when there's an
ADSL fault. Then again, I'm on cable!