bouncing connection and a netgear router..

Hi yall,

I'm working on a problem for a friend. She uses DSL filtered thru a
Netgear router for wireless access on her laptop. Her problem is, when
she tries to use certain streaming programs, such as IM progs, she gets
a bouncing effect. Nothing is noticed on her wireless connection, but
the program constantly stops and restarts. For example, using Yahoo IM,
it will continuously log her on and off, usually several times within a
30 sec period..

I have seen where Dlink routers have an issue with wireless spikes, but
it usually covers the whole connection, not just certain ports.

Has anyone else seen this in a Netgear router? If so, any solution
would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Jon

(E-Mail Removed) wrote:
> Hi yall,
>
> I'm working on a problem for a friend. She uses DSL filtered thru a
> Netgear router for wireless access on her laptop. Her problem is, when
> she tries to use certain streaming programs, such as IM progs, she gets
> a bouncing effect. Nothing is noticed on her wireless connection, but
> the program constantly stops and restarts. For example, using Yahoo IM,
> it will continuously log her on and off, usually several times within a
> 30 sec period..
>
> I have seen where Dlink routers have an issue with wireless spikes, but
> it usually covers the whole connection, not just certain ports.
>
> Has anyone else seen this in a Netgear router? If so, any solution
> would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> Jon
>
Strider,

From your post, I gather that she has DSL service from her local
phone company. Those DSL filters are suppose to filter out Internet
packets so there is no interference with when making a phone call.
What she needs to do is put the filter on the phone line, and then
connect the phone onto the filter. For Internet connections, all she
needs to do connect DSL modem straight to the phone line, router to the
DSL modem, and finally computer to the router without any filters on it..

hope it helps.

> Strider,
>
> From your post, I gather that she has DSL service from her local
> phone company. Those DSL filters are suppose to filter out Internet
> packets so there is no interference with when making a phone call.
> What she needs to do is put the filter on the phone line, and then
> connect the phone onto the filter. For Internet connections, all she
> needs to do connect DSL modem straight to the phone line, router to the
> DSL modem, and finally computer to the router without any filters on it..
>
> hope it helps.

Yes, she carries DSL from the local telco, namely Alltel. Her wiring is
in good shape, she keeps filters on all the phone lines, and has the
modem directly connected. Mainly, what I'm trying to do is establish
that there isn't a problem with her router before we contact the local
telco and request a line check up to the NID.

My main concern is that the bouncing only occurs in the use of
streaming programs. Her wireless connection does not show the variances
I have seen with Dlink's, which affects the whole connection in
general. Use of Streaming apps, such as IM's and Internet Radio are the
only things affected.

My strong belief is that it's an outside wiring issue, probably a bad
slick card. She maintains the problems at all times, but it seems to
amplify whenever moisture could be an issue (rain). So, before we run
to Alltel crying foul, I want to ensure all other possible avenues have
been checked.

Thats why I'm checking with everyone on here to see if anyone has
encountered the issue before with this brand of router.

Thanks,
Jon

(E-Mail Removed) hath wroth:

>I'm working on a problem for a friend. She uses DSL filtered thru a
>Netgear router for wireless access on her laptop.

I just love questions with absolutely no useful names and numbers. It
add a challenge to troubleshooting. The following are rhetorical
questions that you should ask yourself before blameing the DSL line.

- What model Netgear router?
- What hardware version of the Netgear router?
- Are you in the USA or elsewhere?
- Is the router firmware the latest? Are you sure it's the latest?
- What speed DSL line? What type of service (PPPoE, ADSL+, etc)?
- Have you had the ISP perform an ATM ping and line quality test?
- Have you checked the status page of the router for S/N ratio and
signal level numbers? What does the status page say about the
DSL line quality?

>Her problem is, when
>she tries to use certain streaming programs, such as IM progs, she gets
>a bouncing effect.

IM programs are normally NOT streaming. Streaming is playing MP3's,
videos, and file sharing. A "bouncing" effect would seem to indicate
that the connection is intermittently stopping and restarting. More
questions:
- What exact operating system is the laptop using? What laptop?
- What exact "certain" programs is she using that have problems?
Are there any streaming programs (itunes, Winamp, Real One,
Google video, MS Media Player, etc) that do work as expected?
- What happens when she takes the wireless out of the picture and
connects directly to the Netgear router with a CAT5 cable?
Does "streaming" now work?
- Is the IM program with the problem doing VoIP or video?
- Have you done any download benchmarks and speed tests?
Are the download and upload speeds roughly what the service is
suppose to deliver? Try:
http://nitro.ucsc.edu
for the west coast of the USA. There are other servers listed with
might be closer in other parts of the planet. Run the test with a
directly connected (CAT5) cable, not the wireless. We're testing
the DSL here, not the wireless link.

>Nothing is noticed on her wireless connection, but
>the program constantly stops and restarts. For example, using Yahoo IM,
>it will continuously log her on and off, usually several times within a
>30 sec period..

OK, we have Yahoo Messenger. I had the same problem with GAIM and
Miranda IM and Yahoo Messenger. Loose a few packets and Yahoo says
I'm disconnected. However, it doesn't actually log me off which
requires logging back in. Does it really log her off, or just
disconnect and reconnect constantly?

>I have seen where Dlink routers have an issue with wireless spikes, but
>it usually covers the whole connection, not just certain ports.

OK, now we have some clues. Can I deduce from this that it's ONLY the
Yahoo Messenger client that's having a bad day and that everything
else (web browsing, email, file transfers, file sharing, downloads,
online games, and the wireless itself) are working normally?

Ummmm.... what's a "wireless spike"?

>Has anyone else seen this in a Netgear router? If so, any solution
>would be appreciated.

Clue: Not all Netgear routers are from the same manufactory in China.
Different models and series of models use radically different chipsets
and board designs. You can't say that they're all the same.

Incidentally, I did have a problem with flakey performance with a
Netgear DG834 wireless router. I'm guessing that this is similar to
what she has except she probably has a built in DSL modem model. I
had to upgrade the firmware to get it to work reliably on a satellite
link.

--
Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

>
> I just love questions with absolutely no useful names and numbers. It
> add a challenge to troubleshooting. The following are rhetorical
> questions that you should ask yourself before blameing the DSL line.
>
> - What model Netgear router?
If I remember correctly, WGR614..but not 100% certain

> - What hardware version of the Netgear router?
Have to get back to u on that..

> - Are you in the USA or elsewhere?
Southern USA

> - Is the router firmware the latest? Are you sure it's the latest?
Not yet...

> - What speed DSL line? What type of service (PPPoE, ADSL+, etc)?
1.5 Meg Adsl

> - Have you had the ISP perform an ATM ping and line quality test?
No, next step. Alltel is quick to blame in house items, so I'm checking
it all b4 I call

> - Have you checked the status page of the router for S/N ratio and
> signal level numbers? What does the status page say about the
> DSL line quality?
No, I had a limited time between jobs last time. Focused mainly on the
wiring and filters. Plan on heading back over there next weekend to
double check everything b4 the call is made.

> >Her problem is, when
> >she tries to use certain streaming programs, such as IM progs, she gets
> >a bouncing effect.
>
> IM programs are normally NOT streaming.
They are when she is using a cam, which she constantly does.

> A "bouncing" effect would seem to indicate
> that the connection is intermittently stopping and restarting. More
> questions:

> - What exact operating system is the laptop using? What laptop?
HP, not certain exact model, Win XP SP2

> - What exact "certain" programs is she using that have problems?
Right now, Yahoo IM and Pandora are the ones showing the prob.

> Are there any streaming programs (itunes, Winamp, Real One,
> Google video, MS Media Player, etc) that do work as expected?
> - What happens when she takes the wireless out of the picture and
> connects directly to the Netgear router with a CAT5 cable?
I'll get her to try that tonite, and if she can't, I'll check it next
weekend...

>
> >Nothing is noticed on her wireless connection, but
> >the program constantly stops and restarts. For example, using Yahoo IM,
> >it will continuously log her on and off, usually several times within a
> >30 sec period..
>
> OK, we have Yahoo Messenger. I had the same problem with GAIM and
> Miranda IM and Yahoo Messenger. Loose a few packets and Yahoo says
> I'm disconnected. However, it doesn't actually log me off which
> requires logging back in. Does it really log her off, or just
> disconnect and reconnect constantly?

Disconnect and reconnect constantly. She stays connected on YIM chat
boxes, but constant sign in/out and loss of camera feed. and sometimes
(mostly noticed on rainy days) it will bounce enough to lock up the
computer, forcing a reboot.

> >I have seen where Dlink routers have an issue with wireless spikes, but
> >it usually covers the whole connection, not just certain ports.
>
> OK, now we have some clues. Can I deduce from this that it's ONLY the
> Yahoo Messenger client that's having a bad day and that everything
> else (web browsing, email, file transfers, file sharing, downloads,
> online games, and the wireless itself) are working normally?
Just Yahoo and Pandora

> Ummmm.... what's a "wireless spike"?
Sorry, telco butting into my networking. A sudden drop in wireless
signal, with a slow pickup. (think cruising at 54mg, suddenly dropping
to 1mg, then 5.5, then 11, then 36, then 48, and finally back up to 54,
all within a minutes time.)

>
> >Has anyone else seen this in a Netgear router? If so, any solution
> >would be appreciated.
>
> Clue: Not all Netgear routers are from the same manufactory in China.
> Different models and series of models use radically different chipsets
> and board designs. You can't say that they're all the same.
>
> Incidentally, I did have a problem with flakey performance with a
> Netgear DG834 wireless router. I'm guessing that this is similar to
> what she has except she probably has a built in DSL modem model.

Nope, seperate modem and router. But, that info really comes in handy.

> I
> had to upgrade the firmware to get it to work reliably on a satellite
> link.
I'll keep that in mind, because next week I'm installing a 3 line
network for a local construction company that's using a satellite
connection.

I'll be double checking the firmware and hardware next weekend when I
can get back on site. Until then, I'm doing my research, finding out if
anyone else has this prob, possible solutions, etc.

Her provider is notorious for automatically assuming inside wiring or
added items are to blame. Which would mean a tech has to roll, which
includes a site visit fee, repair fee, etc. Thats why I'm checking
everything inside b4 a support call is made.

Thank you.
Jon

Strider,

if you suspect that the wiring is the issue, then you can bypass
the router by connecting the computer to the DSL modem; should the
problem still continue then you can have the phone company check the
line.
Should the problem stop, then I would tell you then there probably
some inference affecting your friend's router.

hope it helps

(E-Mail Removed) wrote:
> > Strider,
> >
> > From your post, I gather that she has DSL service from her local
> > phone company. Those DSL filters are suppose to filter out Internet
> > packets so there is no interference with when making a phone call.
> > What she needs to do is put the filter on the phone line, and then
> > connect the phone onto the filter. For Internet connections, all she
> > needs to do connect DSL modem straight to the phone line, router to the
> > DSL modem, and finally computer to the router without any filters on it..
> >
> > hope it helps.
>
> Yes, she carries DSL from the local telco, namely Alltel. Her wiring is
> in good shape, she keeps filters on all the phone lines, and has the
> modem directly connected. Mainly, what I'm trying to do is establish
> that there isn't a problem with her router before we contact the local
> telco and request a line check up to the NID.
>
> My main concern is that the bouncing only occurs in the use of
> streaming programs. Her wireless connection does not show the variances
> I have seen with Dlink's, which affects the whole connection in
> general. Use of Streaming apps, such as IM's and Internet Radio are the
> only things affected.
>
> My strong belief is that it's an outside wiring issue, probably a bad
> slick card. She maintains the problems at all times, but it seems to
> amplify whenever moisture could be an issue (rain). So, before we run
> to Alltel crying foul, I want to ensure all other possible avenues have
> been checked.
>
> Thats why I'm checking with everyone on here to see if anyone has
> encountered the issue before with this brand of router.
>
> Thanks,
> Jon

(E-Mail Removed) hath wroth:

>
>>
>> I just love questions with absolutely no useful names and numbers. It
>> add a challenge to troubleshooting. The following are rhetorical
>> questions that you should ask yourself before blameing the DSL line.
>>
>> - What model Netgear router?
>If I remember correctly, WGR614..but not 100% certain

The WGR614 wireless router does NOT have a built in DSL modem. Look
around for a box that's acting as a DSL modem. Also, there are 7
versions of the WGR614. They all look the same, but are quite
different inside:
http://kbserver.netgear.com/products/WGR614.asp

>> - Have you had the ISP perform an ATM ping and line quality test?
>No, next step. Alltel is quick to blame in house items, so I'm checking
>it all b4 I call

Actually, that's also been my experience. When a customer calls
complaining of a flakey DSL connection, it all too common to find that
they've added a phone somewhere and forgot to install a microfilter.
Usually it's the CATV or DBS satellite set top box. Sometimes, it's a
fax machine or fax/modem/printer/scanner combo. If her house has lots
of phones and gadgets, think about installing a splitter at the MPOE
(where the phone line enters the house), getting rid of the
microfilters, and running a dedicated pair to the DSL modem.

That reminds me. Another all too common problem is the flat "station"
wire between the DSL modem and the wall. I've found problems with
such flat wires longer than about 15ft. The lack of twisted pairs and
relatively high resistance seems to cause problems. (I'm not sure
exactly why).

>> - Have you checked the status page of the router for S/N ratio and
>> signal level numbers? What does the status page say about the
>> DSL line quality?
>No, I had a limited time between jobs last time. Focused mainly on the
>wiring and filters. Plan on heading back over there next weekend to
>double check everything b4 the call is made.

Set them up with some kind of DDNS (dynamic DNS) service so that you
can ping them from your location. Ping the router, not the client
machines. You can usually tell if something has gone weird or insane
by the latency.

>> IM programs are normally NOT streaming.
>They are when she is using a cam, which she constantly does.

Touche. Y'er right. I use a camera with several programs. The level
of quality and speed varies with the program. I've never bothered to
see which is best or worst. As I vaguely recall, Yahoo Messenger
video worked just fine on my 1500/384 DSL line. I also vaguely recall
trying various programs when my line was 1500/128Kbit/sec. That
didn't work very well at all. Check the outgoing bandwidth and make
sure that there's nothing else (i.e. file sharing software, servers,
spam, trojans, etc) that are consuming bandwidth.

>> - What exact "certain" programs is she using that have problems?
>Right now, Yahoo IM and Pandora are the ones showing the prob.

I'm not familiar with Pandora. (I'll spare you the "out of the box"
jokes).

>> Are there any streaming programs (itunes, Winamp, Real One,
>> Google video, MS Media Player, etc) that do work as expected?
>> - What happens when she takes the wireless out of the picture and
>> connects directly to the Netgear router with a CAT5 cable?
>I'll get her to try that tonite, and if she can't, I'll check it next
>weekend...

It's important to determine if the problem is on the wireless or DSL
end. It also might be a screwed up computah. The CAT5 test should at
least partly eliminate the wireless. If there's another computer
available, it might be worth trying. If you can bring another laptop,
and wire it into the router with CAT5, you can run a file copy
benchmark test between the 2nd laptop and her wireless laptop. That
will give some indication of how well the wireless is doing. If it's
unusually slow, then there's something wrong with the wireless part of
the puzzle. If the laptop is fairly close to the WGR614 (not too
close), you should get a 54Mbit/sec wireless connection which should
yield about 25Mbits/sec TCP (file copy) thruput.

Also, have her try something really simple:
Start -> run -> cmd <enter>
ping 192.168.1.1 -t
This will continuously ping the router from her laptop. With a wired
connection, the latency should be zero and no packet loss. However,
with a wired connection, it should be 1-2 msec and no lost packets. If
the latency is mostly 1-2 msec but often increases to much larger
delays, then she's getting interference from something.

>Disconnect and reconnect constantly. She stays connected on YIM chat
>boxes, but constant sign in/out and loss of camera feed. and sometimes
>(mostly noticed on rainy days) it will bounce enough to lock up the
>computer, forcing a reboot.

Hmmm... I'm not sure what to make of that. Kinda sounds like the
wireless is stopping intermittently causing the disconnections. If it
disconnects long enough, it logs her out. I think taking the wireless
out of the picture with CAT5 will settle that question.

>> Ummmm.... what's a "wireless spike"?
>Sorry, telco butting into my networking.

Yeah, welcome to my pet peeve. I have both telco and CATV customers
as clients. I have to change my language, acronyms, buzzwords, idiom,
and jokes whenever I talk to these.

>A sudden drop in wireless
>signal, with a slow pickup. (think cruising at 54mg, suddenly dropping
>to 1mg, then 5.5, then 11, then 36, then 48, and finally back up to 54,
>all within a minutes time.)

That could easily be interference. Tell me something about the laptop
and its wireless card when you get the info. As I recall, the access
point sets the speed. However, the ability to recover is totally
dependent on the S/N ratio reported by the client. Therefore, a
client that get clobbered by some bursty RF interference (like a
microwave oven), will act like that.

Possible sources of RF interference:
http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi#Interference

Incidentally, I'm watching Skype announce that one of customers is
online every 5 minutes or so. Up and down all day long. So, I login
remotely to see what's wrong. He gets lots of email (likes to do his
own spam filtering). For some odd reason, he was bouncing all his
spam back to the source. Bad idea for various reasons. When his
client checks for email and clogs the upstream on his DSL connection,
Skype can't talk to the various user distributed directory servers and
goes comatose for a while. When it comes back, it announces that it's
back. It doesn't take much in the way of upstream bandwidth
consumption to irritate some of these IM-like programs.

>> Incidentally, I did have a problem with flakey performance with a
>> Netgear DG834 wireless router. I'm guessing that this is similar to
>> what she has except she probably has a built in DSL modem model.
>
>Nope, seperate modem and router. But, that info really comes in handy.

The DG834 is very different from the various WGR614 mutations. It's a
beam steering router with a different Atheros chipset. The problems
were apparently in the beam steering part of the router, which was
fixed by the firmware update. In general, I rarely can buy a wireless
device that has the latest firmware installed. I almost always have
to update the firmware. Check to be sure.

>I'll keep that in mind, because next week I'm installing a 3 line
>network for a local construction company that's using a satellite
>connection.

3 line? You're back to telco-talk again. In computer geek talk, it's
3 client computers, or 3 workstations, or a 3 station workgroup.

If it's DirecWay/Hughesnet, it's fairly simple. The DW7000
terminal/router is quite simple and easy to deal with. One decision
is whether to leave the DW7000 as an NAT router when attaching a 2nd
router for wireless and end up with double NAT, or whether to disable
the NAT router section of either the DW7000 or the wireless router.
Methinks that could best be answered in the satellite specific
newsgroup.
http://customercare.myhughesnet.com/

>I'll be double checking the firmware and hardware next weekend when I
>can get back on site. Until then, I'm doing my research, finding out if
>anyone else has this prob, possible solutions, etc.

Weekend? Watch the overtime.

>Her provider is notorious for automatically assuming inside wiring or
>added items are to blame. Which would mean a tech has to roll, which
>includes a site visit fee, repair fee, etc. Thats why I'm checking
>everything inside b4 a support call is made.

If the DSL modem has diagnostics, you can do much of the
troubleshooting yourself. For example, the common
SpeedStream/Efficient 5100b:
http://forums.ricknmiasworld.net/5100b/statistics.htm

--
Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

> Actually, that's also been my experience. When a customer calls
> complaining of a flakey DSL connection, it all too common to find that
> they've added a phone somewhere and forgot to install a microfilter.
> Usually it's the CATV or DBS satellite set top box. Sometimes, it's a
> fax machine or fax/modem/printer/scanner combo. If her house has lots
> of phones and gadgets, think about installing a splitter at the MPOE
> (where the phone line enters the house), getting rid of the
> microfilters, and running a dedicated pair to the DSL modem.
>
> That reminds me. Another all too common problem is the flat "station"
> wire between the DSL modem and the wall. I've found problems with
> such flat wires longer than about 15ft. The lack of twisted pairs and
> relatively high resistance seems to cause problems. (I'm not sure
> exactly why).

> >> Ummmm.... what's a "wireless spike"?
> >Sorry, telco butting into my networking.
>
> Yeah, welcome to my pet peeve. I have both telco and CATV customers
> as clients. I have to change my language, acronyms, buzzwords, idiom,
> and jokes whenever I talk to these.
>
> >I'll keep that in mind, because next week I'm installing a 3 line
> >network for a local construction company that's using a satellite
> >connection.
>
> 3 line? You're back to telco-talk again. In computer geek talk, it's
> 3 client computers, or 3 workstations, or a 3 station workgroup.
>
Sorry, been doing way too many cable installs lately. Losing touch with
my roots...


>
> I'm not familiar with Pandora. (I'll spare you the "out of the box"
> jokes).
>

Actually, Pandora is a music project. It's a self programming Internet
Radio system. Go check it out at Pandora . com.

> Weekend? Watch the overtime.

She's a friend, so it's an off the clock deal. Which is why I have to
wait until next weekend...
But, she does have satellite, and I forgot to check it for a filter, so
thats another thing for the list...

Thanks,
Jon