Attn Kraftee - help please!!

Hi K

We have corresponded before over BT type line stuff and this time I need
your superior advice.

We help a mate who has BT (not very)broadband. Unfortunately he is lucky
to ever get a 1Meg connection and sometimes 700K - as was his neighbour
before he moved.
A recent BT guy who visited to investigate, said it was the router and
he managed to get a new one sent but no better
This is confirmed by Samknows on his phone number and phone numbers of
nearby neighbours and actually asking some neighbours what they get.
Strangely all along the street (therefore on the same main cable)
everyone else gets about 4 - 5Meg.
I have checked the street cable to the BT outside and, even though it is
an oldish plastic 4pair, the whites seem to be the correct pairing so I
don't think it is split pair on that bit.
Unfortunately the pair into the house disappears as an old grey
'dropwire' and re-appears at the NTE as a new 4pair so there must be a
join somewhere.
I might do a check from the block (won't tell on me will you?).

However if no better, is there any way to get a suitably qualified
Openreach person to check for split pairs (strange co-incidence that
next door is bad) at least back to the nearest cab?
Recently Openreach had a purge on joints and checked all down the street
but I doubt they checked for splits.

I have to say 'qualified' as I was recently out helping to sort a
problem with a newish guy (one leg dis making the BB work but of course
not the PSTN) - chatting at the cab (about joining the BT Outside
Broadcast Group - who I have worked with a lot) and I had to explain
line theory and capacitance/inductance/freq response TO HIM and the
problems one can get with split pairs.

Any advice to 'get around the system' would be appreciated.

The guy is actually thinking of trying to sign-up with BT Vision -
letting them sort the pairs so it may work - then trying to cancel!!

Mike

"mike" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> Hi K
>
> We have corresponded before over BT type line stuff and this time I need
> your superior advice.
>
> We help a mate who has BT (not very)broadband. Unfortunately he is lucky
> to ever get a 1Meg connection and sometimes 700K - as was his neighbour
> before he moved.
> A recent BT guy who visited to investigate, said it was the router and he
> managed to get a new one sent but no better
> This is confirmed by Samknows on his phone number and phone numbers of
> nearby neighbours and actually asking some neighbours what they get.
> Strangely all along the street (therefore on the same main cable) everyone
> else gets about 4 - 5Meg.
> I have checked the street cable to the BT outside and, even though it is
> an oldish plastic 4pair, the whites seem to be the correct pairing so I
> don't think it is split pair on that bit.
> Unfortunately the pair into the house disappears as an old grey 'dropwire'
> and re-appears at the NTE as a new 4pair so there must be a join
> somewhere.
> I might do a check from the block (won't tell on me will you?).
>
> However if no better, is there any way to get a suitably qualified
> Openreach person to check for split pairs (strange co-incidence that next
> door is bad) at least back to the nearest cab?
> Recently Openreach had a purge on joints and checked all down the street
> but I doubt they checked for splits.
>
> I have to say 'qualified' as I was recently out helping to sort a problem
> with a newish guy (one leg dis making the BB work but of course not the
> PSTN) - chatting at the cab (about joining the BT Outside Broadcast
> Group - who I have worked with a lot) and I had to explain line theory and
> capacitance/inductance/freq response TO HIM and the problems one can get
> with split pairs.
>
> Any advice to 'get around the system' would be appreciated.
>
> The guy is actually thinking of trying to sign-up with BT Vision - letting
> them sort the pairs so it may work - then trying to cancel!!
>
> Mike


Well in a dire emergency where a cable has been damaged
and one wire of both the remaining pairs have each been
open circuit, I have been known to use one wire from each,
but to split them when both pairs are intact? It shouldn't
happen, but your reasoning is sound, so lets pursue it.

If you and your neighbours lines are in split pairs, I would
expect a measure of audio crosstalk.
Moreover, I would expect to hear the ringing waveform
in your earpiece when your neighbours phone is ringing and
vice versa. The degree of these effects would, of course,
depend on the length of cable with the split pairs, but I would
say even a run of 5 meters would be enough to hear when
ringing is present on the other line.


--
Graham

%Profound_observation%

Graham. wrote:

>
>
>
> Well in a dire emergency where a cable has been damaged
> and one wire of both the remaining pairs have each been
> open circuit, I have been known to use one wire from each,
> but to split them when both pairs are intact? It shouldn't
> happen, but your reasoning is sound, so lets pursue it.
>
> If you and your neighbours lines are in split pairs, I would
> expect a measure of audio crosstalk.
> Moreover, I would expect to hear the ringing waveform
> in your earpiece when your neighbours phone is ringing and
> vice versa. The degree of these effects would, of course,
> depend on the length of cable with the split pairs, but I would
> say even a run of 5 meters would be enough to hear when
> ringing is present on the other line.
>
>
Thanks Graham.

My thoughts as well. Of course for a simple PTSN, the use of odd wires
isn't so much of a problem but for BB - well!!

At the moment the house next door has just changed hands and he hasn't
got a phone connected so that makes life a bit difficult.
However (if no-one is looking) I might just put a test set on that pair
and listen across while shouting on the other!!

Mike

"mike" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> Hi K
>
> We have corresponded before over BT type line stuff and this time I need
> your superior advice.
>
> We help a mate who has BT (not very)broadband. Unfortunately he is lucky
> to ever get a 1Meg connection and sometimes 700K - as was his neighbour
> before he moved.
> A recent BT guy who visited to investigate, said it was the router and he
> managed to get a new one sent but no better
> This is confirmed by Samknows on his phone number and phone numbers of
> nearby neighbours and actually asking some neighbours what they get.
> Strangely all along the street (therefore on the same main cable) everyone
> else gets about 4 - 5Meg.
> I have checked the street cable to the BT outside and, even though it is
> an oldish plastic 4pair, the whites seem to be the correct pairing so I
> don't think it is split pair on that bit.
> Unfortunately the pair into the house disappears as an old grey 'dropwire'
> and re-appears at the NTE as a new 4pair so there must be a join
> somewhere.
> I might do a check from the block (won't tell on me will you?).
>
> However if no better, is there any way to get a suitably qualified
> Openreach person to check for split pairs (strange co-incidence that next
> door is bad) at least back to the nearest cab?
> Recently Openreach had a purge on joints and checked all down the street
> but I doubt they checked for splits.
>
> I have to say 'qualified' as I was recently out helping to sort a problem
> with a newish guy (one leg dis making the BB work but of course not the
> PSTN) - chatting at the cab (about joining the BT Outside Broadcast
> Group - who I have worked with a lot) and I had to explain line theory and
> capacitance/inductance/freq response TO HIM and the problems one can get
> with split pairs.
>
> Any advice to 'get around the system' would be appreciated.
>
> The guy is actually thinking of trying to sign-up with BT Vision - letting
> them sort the pairs so it may work - then trying to cancel!!
>
> Mike


I just read the (unrelated) bit about one leg dis, its strange you
should mention that because on my job today, which included
setting up ADSL, the PSTN line was dead but broadband
was working perfectly. I couldn't ascertain whether the line
had been correctly jumpered at the exchange, or the whole
caboodle was working one legged.

The problem is further complicated that Openreach's
NTTP is in a different part of the premises and the remaining
part of the cable is the responsibility of the site's network
contractors.

The good news is that the PSTN will never be used, it's
OCB anyway, but I've reported it as a fault, as a one legged
ADSL line may not be too reliable.
Kraftee: is there any way I could tell in a case like that,
without specialist equipment, if the pair went all the way
back to the exchange frame but was not correctly looped
through to the PSTN, or it was genuinely working on
one leg?


--
Graham

%Profound_observation%

mike wrote:
> Hi K
>
> We have corresponded before over BT type line stuff and this time I
> need your superior advice.

Don't I'll start blushing
>
> We help a mate who has BT (not very)broadband. Unfortunately he is
> lucky to ever get a 1Meg connection and sometimes 700K - as was his
> neighbour before he moved.
> A recent BT guy who visited to investigate, said it was the router
> and he managed to get a new one sent but no better
> This is confirmed by Samknows on his phone number and phone numbers
> of nearby neighbours and actually asking some neighbours what they
> get. Strangely all along the street (therefore on the same main
> cable) everyone else gets about 4 - 5Meg.

First supposition, you are incorrect in your thinking at this point as
there are a few places in my patch where streets have been partially
swapped to a newer scheme but not all the properties where put thru.
I can even take you to some where all the new cabling is in place &
yet no one has been swung over onto it, but I can understand your
reasoning.

> I have checked the street cable to the BT outside and, even though
> it is an oldish plastic 4pair, the whites seem to be the correct
> pairing so I don't think it is split pair on that bit.
> Unfortunately the pair into the house disappears as an old grey
> 'dropwire' and re-appears at the NTE as a new 4pair so there must
> be a join somewhere.

??????Confusion the external wiring is old 4pr so where does the
dropwire 3 come into place(old grey dropwire), but you are correct in
assuming that somewhere along the length there has got to be another
block.

> I might do a check from the block (won't tell on me will you?).

It's what I would do in your stead...
>
> However if no better, is there any way to get a suitably qualified
> Openreach person to check for split pairs (strange co-incidence that
> next door is bad) at least back to the nearest cab?
> Recently Openreach had a purge on joints and checked all down the
> street but I doubt they checked for splits.

Fraid not, the only time (over 5-6 years) I've known a PTO to do
testing on pairs (on an ADSL fault) is one which went all the way up
the ladder to the board. I'm not saying it isn't done, it's rarely
done
>
> I have to say 'qualified' as I was recently out helping to sort a
> problem with a newish guy (one leg dis making the BB work but of
> course not the PSTN) - chatting at the cab (about joining the BT
> Outside Broadcast Group - who I have worked with a lot) and I had
> to explain line theory and capacitance/inductance/freq response TO
> HIM and the problems one can get with split pairs.

Yes I know quite a few guys out there who would split a pair in order
to get 2 working wires, regardless of the future results.

>
> Any advice to 'get around the system' would be appreciated.

There isn't anything you can do other than flag it up as high as you
can in the managerial tree, even I've had to go that path recently due
to the ineptitude of the support desk. If your line is testing
electronically ok, balanced capacitance, no earth, battery or loop
conditions, there is very little you can do in order to get an
interest in your perceived problem.

(Here comes one of my rambling examples)

I have a row of shops on my patch & every shop bar one can have DSL
services, I've changed the complete routing from exchange to customer,
I've renewed over head & internal cabling, to no effect. All test say
it should (including a line loss reading), checked the ambient RF
field (on the off chance one of their machines is pumping out a signal
just at the right signal to give them grief) but nothing can be done
for them.

(that wasn't so long, was it).
>
> The guy is actually thinking of trying to sign-up with BT Vision -
> letting them sort the pairs so it may work - then trying to cancel!!

If his speed is that low (& if they check) he won't be able to
progress his order
>
> Mike

Sorry to give you hard news, but check for that block before getting
to down hearted, you never know it may be nice & green (green is bad)
it could even have been plastered into a wall, which is just as bad..

Graham. wrote:
> "mike" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>> Hi K
>>
>> We have corresponded before over BT type line stuff and this time
>> I need your superior advice.
>>
>> We help a mate who has BT (not very)broadband. Unfortunately he is
>> lucky to ever get a 1Meg connection and sometimes 700K - as was
>> his neighbour before he moved.
>> A recent BT guy who visited to investigate, said it was the router
>> and he managed to get a new one sent but no better
>> This is confirmed by Samknows on his phone number and phone
>> numbers of nearby neighbours and actually asking some neighbours
>> what they get. Strangely all along the street (therefore on the
>> same main cable) everyone else gets about 4 - 5Meg.
>> I have checked the street cable to the BT outside and, even though
>> it is an oldish plastic 4pair, the whites seem to be the correct
>> pairing so I don't think it is split pair on that bit.
>> Unfortunately the pair into the house disappears as an old grey
>> 'dropwire' and re-appears at the NTE as a new 4pair so there must
>> be a join somewhere.
>> I might do a check from the block (won't tell on me will you?).
>>
>> However if no better, is there any way to get a suitably qualified
>> Openreach person to check for split pairs (strange co-incidence
>> that next door is bad) at least back to the nearest cab?
>> Recently Openreach had a purge on joints and checked all down the
>> street but I doubt they checked for splits.
>>
>> I have to say 'qualified' as I was recently out helping to sort a
>> problem with a newish guy (one leg dis making the BB work but of
>> course not the PSTN) - chatting at the cab (about joining the BT
>> Outside Broadcast Group - who I have worked with a lot) and I had
>> to explain line
>> theory and capacitance/inductance/freq response TO HIM and the
>> problems one can get with split pairs.
>>
>> Any advice to 'get around the system' would be appreciated.
>>
>> The guy is actually thinking of trying to sign-up with BT Vision -
>> letting them sort the pairs so it may work - then trying to
>> cancel!! Mike
>
>
> I just read the (unrelated) bit about one leg dis, its strange you
> should mention that because on my job today, which included
> setting up ADSL, the PSTN line was dead but broadband
> was working perfectly. I couldn't ascertain whether the line
> had been correctly jumpered at the exchange, or the whole
> caboodle was working one legged.
>
> The problem is further complicated that Openreach's
> NTTP is in a different part of the premises and the remaining
> part of the cable is the responsibility of the site's network
> contractors.
>
> The good news is that the PSTN will never be used, it's
> OCB anyway, but I've reported it as a fault, as a one legged
> ADSL line may not be too reliable.
> Kraftee: is there any way I could tell in a case like that,
> without specialist equipment, if the pair went all the way
> back to the exchange frame but was not correctly looped
> through to the PSTN, or it was genuinely working on
> one leg?

If it's properly jumpered, even if it's OCB you should still get
battery blow (at the very least, 9083 out & look for that 50v across
the pairs) & (depending on the exchange) you may still get dialtone.
The only time this won't be true (AFAIK) is on any hot sites as the
DSL line protector (12a I seem to recall) doesn't actualy physically
connect one side to another it induces/couples the signal across via a
large coil so if the end user requires both DSL & analogue services
they will requires 2 protectors, first the 12a & then the analogue
one..

HTH

"Kraftee" <kraftee@b&e-cottee.me.uk> wrote in message
news:2f-(E-Mail Removed)...
> Graham. wrote:
>> "mike" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>> news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>>> Hi K
>>>
>>> We have corresponded before over BT type line stuff and this time
>>> I need your superior advice.
>>>
>>> We help a mate who has BT (not very)broadband. Unfortunately he is
>>> lucky to ever get a 1Meg connection and sometimes 700K - as was
>>> his neighbour before he moved.
>>> A recent BT guy who visited to investigate, said it was the router
>>> and he managed to get a new one sent but no better
>>> This is confirmed by Samknows on his phone number and phone
>>> numbers of nearby neighbours and actually asking some neighbours
>>> what they get. Strangely all along the street (therefore on the
>>> same main cable) everyone else gets about 4 - 5Meg.
>>> I have checked the street cable to the BT outside and, even though
>>> it is an oldish plastic 4pair, the whites seem to be the correct
>>> pairing so I don't think it is split pair on that bit.
>>> Unfortunately the pair into the house disappears as an old grey
>>> 'dropwire' and re-appears at the NTE as a new 4pair so there must
>>> be a join somewhere.
>>> I might do a check from the block (won't tell on me will you?).
>>>
>>> However if no better, is there any way to get a suitably qualified
>>> Openreach person to check for split pairs (strange co-incidence
>>> that next door is bad) at least back to the nearest cab?
>>> Recently Openreach had a purge on joints and checked all down the
>>> street but I doubt they checked for splits.
>>>
>>> I have to say 'qualified' as I was recently out helping to sort a
>>> problem with a newish guy (one leg dis making the BB work but of
>>> course not the PSTN) - chatting at the cab (about joining the BT
>>> Outside Broadcast Group - who I have worked with a lot) and I had to
>>> explain line
>>> theory and capacitance/inductance/freq response TO HIM and the
>>> problems one can get with split pairs.
>>>
>>> Any advice to 'get around the system' would be appreciated.
>>>
>>> The guy is actually thinking of trying to sign-up with BT Vision -
>>> letting them sort the pairs so it may work - then trying to
>>> cancel!! Mike
>>
>>
>> I just read the (unrelated) bit about one leg dis, its strange you
>> should mention that because on my job today, which included
>> setting up ADSL, the PSTN line was dead but broadband
>> was working perfectly. I couldn't ascertain whether the line
>> had been correctly jumpered at the exchange, or the whole
>> caboodle was working one legged.
>>
>> The problem is further complicated that Openreach's
>> NTTP is in a different part of the premises and the remaining
>> part of the cable is the responsibility of the site's network
>> contractors.
>>
>> The good news is that the PSTN will never be used, it's
>> OCB anyway, but I've reported it as a fault, as a one legged
>> ADSL line may not be too reliable.
>> Kraftee: is there any way I could tell in a case like that,
>> without specialist equipment, if the pair went all the way
>> back to the exchange frame but was not correctly looped
>> through to the PSTN, or it was genuinely working on
>> one leg?
>
> If it's properly jumpered, even if it's OCB you should still get battery
> blow (at the very least, 9083 out & look for that 50v across the pairs) &
> (depending on the exchange) you may still get dialtone. The only time this
> won't be true (AFAIK) is on any hot sites as the DSL line protector (12a I
> seem to recall) doesn't actualy physically connect one side to another it
> induces/couples the signal across via a large coil so if the end user
> requires both DSL & analogue services they will requires 2 protectors,
> first the 12a & then the analogue one..
>
> HTH


No, what I want to do is tell the difference between incorrect
jumpering (pair back to the dslam, no PSTN)
and
one leg dis (but ADSL working, like it sometimes does)
Both conditions will give no sidetone.

Also, if Mike does get mutual crosstalk with his neighbours,
couldn't he peruse it as a privacy issue and get the crosstalk
resolved?
--
Graham

%Profound_observation%

Graham. wrote:
>
>
> No, what I want to do is tell the difference between incorrect
> jumpering (pair back to the dslam, no PSTN)
> and
> one leg dis (but ADSL working, like it sometimes does)
> Both conditions will give no sidetone.

Yes but if the broken leg is any distance from the far end the DSL
cirduit will not normally work. I've also known some DSLAMS not to
supple the DSL signal until the 50v (nominal) passes thru them. The
only way to track down such a fault would be to start checking from
one end (checking with the tester 301 or Hawk) to see if there is any
observable breaks on the pair then (depending on the readings
obtained) going to the next appropiate test point & so on....
>
> Also, if Mike does get mutual crosstalk with his neighbours,
> couldn't he peruse it as a privacy issue and get the crosstalk
> resolved?

He could try that but be prepared for a long hard haul (with possible
charges being continually raised) as the line would (to all intents &
purposes) test ok until if & when there is a PTO assigned & proves
such things as split pairs exist...

Kraftee wrote:

>
>
>>I have checked the street cable to the BT outside and, even though
>>it is an oldish plastic 4pair, the whites seem to be the correct
>>pairing so I don't think it is split pair on that bit.
>>Unfortunately the pair into the house disappears as an old grey
>>'dropwire' and re-appears at the NTE as a new 4pair so there must
>>be a join somewhere.
>
>
> ??????Confusion the external wiring is old 4pr so where does the
> dropwire 3 come into place(old grey dropwire), but you are correct in
> assuming that somewhere along the length there has got to be another
> block.
>
There is the usual greyfronted slip-off lid BT without chock blocks
inside but crimps.
A 3 or 4 pair external cable u/g to there and then a dropwire 3 (yes
really!!) on the crimps disapearing into the pointing low down.
Real bodge job!!

> Yes I know quite a few guys out there who would split a pair in order
> to get 2 working wires, regardless of the future results.
>
Oh dear don't mention Graham's posts!
>
>
> Sorry to give you hard news, but check for that block before getting
> to down hearted, you never know it may be nice & green (green is bad)
> it could even have been plastered into a wall, which is just as bad..
>
>
Yeh I'm going to break the crimp (have plenty spares) and do a test from
the end of the u/g cable.

May have to wait till new neighbour gets his phone/BB and chase it on
the back of a 'new install'

Thanks anyway

Mike

PS I bet you don't have the drawing of the agreed allocation of paper
insulated lead cable on a BT 17 for use on a Televison Outside Broadcast
for minimum crosstalk between the program and control lines or what pair
the Exchange Line and the vision circuit appear on!
(DEL on 15, vision on 14) - he he

mike wrote:
> Kraftee wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>> I have checked the street cable to the BT outside and, even though
>>> it is an oldish plastic 4pair, the whites seem to be the correct
>>> pairing so I don't think it is split pair on that bit.
>>> Unfortunately the pair into the house disappears as an old grey
>>> 'dropwire' and re-appears at the NTE as a new 4pair so there must
>>> be a join somewhere.
>>
>>
>> ??????Confusion the external wiring is old 4pr so where does the
>> dropwire 3 come into place(old grey dropwire), but you are correct
>> in assuming that somewhere along the length there has got to be
>> another block.
>>
> There is the usual greyfronted slip-off lid BT without chock blocks
> inside but crimps.

Right, I now know where you are coming from, choc blocks are not
acceptable practice inside a BT66 nowadays.....

> A 3 or 4 pair external cable u/g to there and then a dropwire 3 (yes
> really!!) on the crimps disapearing into the pointing low down.
> Real bodge job!!
>

But why the blazes did they use DW3, mind you DW3 is perfectly
acceptable if it's in good condition & has been connected properly,
using the correct connectors (normal 8a/b's don't hack it it's got to
be DW Connectors 2a)

>> Yes I know quite a few guys out there who would split a pair in
>> order to get 2 working wires, regardless of the future results.
>>
> Oh dear don't mention Graham's posts!
>>
>>
>> Sorry to give you hard news, but check for that block before
>> getting to down hearted, you never know it may be nice & green
>> (green is bad) it could even have been plastered into a wall,
>> which is just as bad..
> Yeh I'm going to break the crimp (have plenty spares) and do a test
> from the end of the u/g cable.

May be for the best, but only if you have the correct connectors to
remake the connection, you may have better luck locating & testing at
the internal block, where it changes from DW3 to internal cable. If
you can't find it then that's probably where the problem is anyway....
>
> May have to wait till new neighbour gets his phone/BB and chase it
> on the back of a 'new install'
>
> Thanks anyway
>
> Mike
>
> PS I bet you don't have the drawing of the agreed allocation of
> paper insulated lead cable on a BT 17 for use on a Televison
> Outside Broadcast for minimum crosstalk between the program and
> control lines or what pair the Exchange Line and the vision circuit
> appear on! (DEL on 15, vision on 14) - he he

To right I don't, even 20 years ago all that had gone out the window
for us poor t2a's, don't mention senior tech's or to's because they
were long gone (on the external side anyway) as well.