anyone know anything about voip and sipgate?

Trying to rationalise my systems here which will involve much messing
around with ISPs, BT and the like and would like to use a second phone
using VOIP..connected to my nice PABX.

Now it seems that various boxes need to be put between the LAN and the
PABX to turn VOIP into analogue phone, but I am terribly confused.

I understand the need for registering with someone who has a VOIP ->
PSTN gateway. In order to talk to normal phones.

I understand the need to translate from VOIP to 'audio' and the like.

But I cant for the life of me understand how the gateway boxes work..

Let's say I have one behind a NAT router.

Some manuals say 'configure incoming UDP pass through on ports XXXX' and
it will work

But the SAME manual says 'don't bother, use DHCP and it will sort itself
out'

And in the SAME manual it seems to imply that the box itself is a NAT
router and DSL modem? yet another part says it needs to be connected TO one?

The VoIP gateway of choice is SIPGATE, as they seem to have the right
tariff structure and be open.

Can someone tell me the bleeding obvious, of what box to get and how it
works?

Set-up is bog standard mainly wired LAN on static public IP address and
NATTED to the hilt with a web server publicly visible via NAT pass-through.

In article <h84emt$aqd$(E-Mail Removed)>,
The Natural Philosopher <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>Trying to rationalise my systems here which will involve much messing
>around with ISPs, BT and the like and would like to use a second phone
>using VOIP..connected to my nice PABX.
>
>Now it seems that various boxes need to be put between the LAN and the
>PABX to turn VOIP into analogue phone, but I am terribly confused.

If your PABX takes analogue lines - ie. designed to be plugged into
a standard BT wall socket, then what you need is an ATA - Analogue
Terminal Adapter. Ethernet one side and a phone socket the other.

>I understand the need for registering with someone who has a VOIP ->
>PSTN gateway. In order to talk to normal phones.

Yes, and the need to pay for it!

>I understand the need to translate from VOIP to 'audio' and the like.

What the ATA does, although you can get dedicated VoIP phones.

>But I cant for the life of me understand how the gateway boxes work..

The ATA itself uses SIP to talk to the ITSP (Internet Telephony Service
Provider) on one side, and presents a normal analogue phone interface
on the other.

>Let's say I have one behind a NAT router.
>
>Some manuals say 'configure incoming UDP pass through on ports XXXX' and
>it will work
>
>But the SAME manual says 'don't bother, use DHCP and it will sort itself
>out'
>
>And in the SAME manual it seems to imply that the box itself is a NAT
>router and DSL modem? yet another part says it needs to be connected TO one?

OK - Stop there!

Some ATAs (or gateway devices) do have router functions built in. Some
because that's the way it is in a minority country where Internet was
traditionally supplied via "cable" and not ADSL, and some by design.

If buying an ATA, then if it has 2 Ethernet ports, then make sure you
just use one of them (usually the one marked "wan") and turn off all
routing functions it may have itself. then it just becomes one more
device on your LAN.

>The VoIP gateway of choice is SIPGATE, as they seem to have the right
>tariff structure and be open.
>
>Can someone tell me the bleeding obvious, of what box to get and how it
>works?
>
>Set-up is bog standard mainly wired LAN on static public IP address and
>NATTED to the hilt with a web server publicly visible via NAT pass-through.

What kind of router do you have? And What ISP?

Some routers block or otherwise corrupt VoIP - ironically in an attempt to
"help" VoIP. Most are broken by design though. This is the first obstacle,
so check the router model.

Do not use any port forwarding for a simple ATA or VoIP phone.

It may be easy to use Sipgate and just buy an ATA off them pre-programmed,
or follow their advice... Or if looking for a "bare" ATA, then this:

http://www.voipon.co.uk/linksys-pap2...ter-p-145.html

and the rest of that site is a good place to start. (And Sipgate sell
them too - not sure if they come programmed though)

http://www.sipgate.co.uk/voipshop/linksys/pap2t

Sipgate is good in that you'll get a free new phone number for incoming
calls and you PAYG for outgoung calls.

What will give you a "bad" VoIP experience is your Internet
connection. Uploading data at the same time as making a call is probably
the worst case. Some routers can help here, but may not be worth the
expense for a home user.

Some routers have ATAs built-in. (Or as I mentioned above, some ATAs have
routers built in!) If you want to buy a new router/ata, then look for
one with an ADSL adapter built in - Draytek and AMV have suitable models.

At the end of the day, it shouldn't be hard - treat the ATA as another
LAN device, let it use DHCP to get it's own IP address, connect an
analogue phone to it, and dial a magic code (RTFM and it will speak
it's IP address to you, connect up a PC with a web browser, point it
at the device and enter the details from the ITSP - usually a username,
password and server IP address.

One additional thing you may need is a STUN server - the ITSP you use will
advise - I don't think sipgate needs one anymore, but they run their own,
so just put the name of their STUN server in the appropriate place in
the ATA. (STUN lets the ATA work it's way round NAT firewalls without
you doing anything special in the firewall)

Finally, you may need an adapter cable for the ATA - check the box
contents! They usually come with an RJ11 connector - check the cable you
need for your PABX and make sure they match up, but I'd suggest using a
bog-standard analogue phone to make sure it's working before connecting
to the PABX.


Good luck!

Gordon

Gordon Henderson wrote:
> In article <h84emt$aqd$(E-Mail Removed)>,
> The Natural Philosopher <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>> Trying to rationalise my systems here which will involve much messing
>> around with ISPs, BT and the like and would like to use a second phone
>> using VOIP..connected to my nice PABX.
>>
>> Now it seems that various boxes need to be put between the LAN and the
>> PABX to turn VOIP into analogue phone, but I am terribly confused.
>
> If your PABX takes analogue lines - ie. designed to be plugged into
> a standard BT wall socket, then what you need is an ATA - Analogue
> Terminal Adapter. Ethernet one side and a phone socket the other.

Yep. Panasonic hybrid. 3 into 8 plus doorphones.
>
>> I understand the need for registering with someone who has a VOIP ->
>> PSTN gateway. In order to talk to normal phones.
>
> Yes, and the need to pay for it!
>
But a bit less than BT!


>> I understand the need to translate from VOIP to 'audio' and the like.
>
> What the ATA does, although you can get dedicated VoIP phones.
>
>> But I cant for the life of me understand how the gateway boxes work..
>
> The ATA itself uses SIP to talk to the ITSP (Internet Telephony Service
> Provider) on one side, and presents a normal analogue phone interface
> on the other.
>
>> Let's say I have one behind a NAT router.
>>
>> Some manuals say 'configure incoming UDP pass through on ports XXXX' and
>> it will work
>>
>> But the SAME manual says 'don't bother, use DHCP and it will sort itself
>> out'
>>
>> And in the SAME manual it seems to imply that the box itself is a NAT
>> router and DSL modem? yet another part says it needs to be connected TO one?
>
> OK - Stop there!
>
> Some ATAs (or gateway devices) do have router functions built in. Some
> because that's the way it is in a minority country where Internet was
> traditionally supplied via "cable" and not ADSL, and some by design.
>
> If buying an ATA, then if it has 2 Ethernet ports, then make sure you
> just use one of them (usually the one marked "wan") and turn off all
> routing functions it may have itself. then it just becomes one more
> device on your LAN.
>
OK.

>> The VoIP gateway of choice is SIPGATE, as they seem to have the right
>> tariff structure and be open.
>>
>> Can someone tell me the bleeding obvious, of what box to get and how it
>> works?
>>
>> Set-up is bog standard mainly wired LAN on static public IP address and
>> NATTED to the hilt with a web server publicly visible via NAT pass-through.
>
> What kind of router do you have? And What ISP?

Both subject to change if needs be. I will be moving to IDnet probably
as part of this whole upgrade.

I've got a couple of D-links and two Belkins lying around..but I am not
averse to getting something all in one, if only to save power cables..I
wouldn'y mind a router with pass through and two extra POTS outputs to
fully drive the PABX. AS much for number diversity as anything else.

>
> Some routers block or otherwise corrupt VoIP - ironically in an attempt to
> "help" VoIP. Most are broken by design though. This is the first obstacle,
> so check the router model.
>
OK.. The one I am using has voip QOS boost possible.

> Do not use any port forwarding for a simple ATA or VoIP phone.
>
That's the bit I don't get. How does the router know where to send
incoming calls as it were..?

> It may be easy to use Sipgate and just buy an ATA off them pre-programmed,
> or follow their advice... Or if looking for a "bare" ATA, then this:
>
> http://www.voipon.co.uk/linksys-pap2...ter-p-145.html
>

I had a look at that and got confused halfway through reading the manual..

> and the rest of that site is a good place to start. (And Sipgate sell
> them too - not sure if they come programmed though)
>
> http://www.sipgate.co.uk/voipshop/linksys/pap2t
>
> Sipgate is good in that you'll get a free new phone number for incoming
> calls and you PAYG for outgoung calls.
>
TBH this is for outbound calls mainly.


> What will give you a "bad" VoIP experience is your Internet
> connection. Uploading data at the same time as making a call is probably
> the worst case. Some routers can help here, but may not be worth the
> expense for a home user.
>
since 99% of calls are made and taken in the home office, its easy
enough to tell the wife to e.g. stop watching porn films online if the
call goes bad..But thats mainly downloads. Uploads will be when we send
emails (whacks the link if they are big) or when someone hits the server
to grab a web page.



> Some routers have ATAs built-in. (Or as I mentioned above, some ATAs have
> routers built in!) If you want to buy a new router/ata, then look for
> one with an ADSL adapter built in - Draytek and AMV have suitable models.
>
> At the end of the day, it shouldn't be hard - treat the ATA as another
> LAN device, let it use DHCP to get it's own IP address, connect an
> analogue phone to it, and dial a magic code (RTFM and it will speak
> it's IP address to you, connect up a PC with a web browser, point it
> at the device and enter the details from the ITSP - usually a username,
> password and server IP address.
>

That's what I expected, but how do incoming calls get handled? how does
the router 'know' where SIP packets should go? In fact since VOIP is
UDP, there is no concept of a 'connected' service..is it like DNS,
something the router 'understands' and maintains state tables for?


> One additional thing you may need is a STUN server - the ITSP you use will
> advise - I don't think sipgate needs one anymore, but they run their own,
> so just put the name of their STUN server in the appropriate place in
> the ATA. (STUN lets the ATA work it's way round NAT firewalls without
> you doing anything special in the firewall)

Some sort of proxy? Tell me more.

>
> Finally, you may need an adapter cable for the ATA - check the box
> contents! They usually come with an RJ11 connector - check the cable you
> need for your PABX and make sure they match up, but I'd suggest using a
> bog-standard analogue phone to make sure it's working before connecting
> to the PABX.
>
Bugger,. I took the RJ11 off the PABX and used BT style shit on then
stuff. Still its RJ11 internally so ultimately old modem leads might
work. Anyway that's sortable. Would definitely use a POTS to get going.
>
> Good luck!
>

Well early days yet. I am trying to move from two BT phones and an
expensive ISP (claranet) to a single line with a PAYG phone/DSL bundle
with IDNET and use VOIP as an alternative second line, and to make
slightly cheaper calls.



Maybe the last thing to ask, is what router does the frigging lot
including two FSX sockets and gives me two more features I really miss
on the one I have now.

Namely SNMP monitoring and the ability to push logs to my LAN server
syslogd.

My old D-link had that, but was dog slow on ADSL. I have a newer D-link
now, but it was ex O2 and is crippled. No SNMP and no syslog


> Gordon

In article <h856ag$b7k$(E-Mail Removed)>,
The Natural Philosopher <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>Gordon Henderson wrote:
>> In article <h84emt$aqd$(E-Mail Removed)>,
>> The Natural Philosopher <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>> Do not use any port forwarding for a simple ATA or VoIP phone.
>>
>That's the bit I don't get. How does the router know where to send
>incoming calls as it were..?

Your router should "remember" the path back to the ATA, once the
ATA makes an outbound connection - so your ATA has to regsiter to the
external ITSP first before it can take incoming calls. Once registered,
it (the ATA) will send little "keepalive" packets, and/or periodically
re-register to keep the command-channel open.


>> At the end of the day, it shouldn't be hard - treat the ATA as another
>> LAN device, let it use DHCP to get it's own IP address, connect an
>> analogue phone to it, and dial a magic code (RTFM and it will speak
>> it's IP address to you, connect up a PC with a web browser, point it
>> at the device and enter the details from the ITSP - usually a username,
>> password and server IP address.
>>
>
>That's what I expected, but how do incoming calls get handled? how does
>the router 'know' where SIP packets should go? In fact since VOIP is
>UDP, there is no concept of a 'connected' service..is it like DNS,
>something the router 'understands' and maintains state tables for?

The router should still "remember" state once the ATA has made contact
with the ITSP. Also note that the actual voice data isn't carried over
the SIP ports, but other ports, but they're negotiated at call setup time.

>> One additional thing you may need is a STUN server - the ITSP you use will
>> advise - I don't think sipgate needs one anymore, but they run their own,
>> so just put the name of their STUN server in the appropriate place in
>> the ATA. (STUN lets the ATA work it's way round NAT firewalls without
>> you doing anything special in the firewall)
>
>Some sort of proxy? Tell me more.

How long have you got ... A STUN server just lets a device on the inside
"know" about how it's local NAT gateway works and what sort of port
mapping to expect. It can then use that knowledge when regsitering with
the remote ITSP and making calls.

>> Finally, you may need an adapter cable for the ATA - check the box
>> contents! They usually come with an RJ11 connector - check the cable you
>> need for your PABX and make sure they match up, but I'd suggest using a
>> bog-standard analogue phone to make sure it's working before connecting
>> to the PABX.
>>
>Bugger,. I took the RJ11 off the PABX and used BT style shit on then
>stuff. Still its RJ11 internally so ultimately old modem leads might
>work. Anyway that's sortable. Would definitely use a POTS to get going.
>>
>> Good luck!
>>
>
>Well early days yet. I am trying to move from two BT phones and an
>expensive ISP (claranet) to a single line with a PAYG phone/DSL bundle
>with IDNET and use VOIP as an alternative second line, and to make
>slightly cheaper calls.

Make sure the ITSP can import standard BT numbers... And when porting
in a number, all services on that line will cease (eg. ADSL)

>Maybe the last thing to ask, is what router does the frigging lot
>including two FSX sockets and gives me two more features I really miss
>on the one I have now.
>
>Namely SNMP monitoring and the ability to push logs to my LAN server
>syslogd.
>
>My old D-link had that, but was dog slow on ADSL. I have a newer D-link
>now, but it was ex O2 and is crippled. No SNMP and no syslog

I use Draytek Vigor routers, some use AVM Fritz! boxes. The Drayteks
don't have monitoring as such, but do support remote SNMP monitoring
(of the Internet bandwidth) and all the "usual" port forwarding to
connect external things to local web, email, etc. servers.

Gordon
--
http://www.drogon.net/

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> since 99% of calls are made and taken in the home office, its easy
> enough to tell the wife to e.g. stop watching porn films online if the
> call goes bad..

Porn films... such as 'Wallender'? how dare you sir!!!

Gordon Henderson wrote:
> In article <h856ag$b7k$(E-Mail Removed)>,
> The Natural Philosopher <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>> Gordon Henderson wrote:
>>> In article <h84emt$aqd$(E-Mail Removed)>,
>>> The Natural Philosopher <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>> Maybe the last thing to ask, is what router does the frigging lot
>> including two FSX sockets and gives me two more features I really miss
>> on the one I have now.
>>
>> Namely SNMP monitoring and the ability to push logs to my LAN server
>> syslogd.
>>
>> My old D-link had that, but was dog slow on ADSL. I have a newer D-link
>> now, but it was ex O2 and is crippled. No SNMP and no syslog
>
> I use Draytek Vigor routers, some use AVM Fritz! boxes. The Drayteks
> don't have monitoring as such, but do support remote SNMP monitoring
> (of the Internet bandwidth) and all the "usual" port forwarding to
> connect external things to local web, email, etc. servers.
>
> Gordon
I saw something called a billion ..that seems to meet the specs as well.

Are not Drayteks confined to the Draytel ITSP?

magwitch wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> since 99% of calls are made and taken in the home office, its easy
>> enough to tell the wife to e.g. stop watching porn films online if the
>> call goes bad..
>
> Porn films... such as 'Wallender'? how dare you sir!!!

Its Swedish, so it must be porn! :-)

In article <h85ncq$5ma$(E-Mail Removed)>,
The Natural Philosopher <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>Gordon Henderson wrote:
>> In article <h856ag$b7k$(E-Mail Removed)>,
>> The Natural Philosopher <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>> Gordon Henderson wrote:
>>>> In article <h84emt$aqd$(E-Mail Removed)>,
>>>> The Natural Philosopher <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>>> Maybe the last thing to ask, is what router does the frigging lot
>>> including two FSX sockets and gives me two more features I really miss
>>> on the one I have now.
>>>
>>> Namely SNMP monitoring and the ability to push logs to my LAN server
>>> syslogd.
>>>
>>> My old D-link had that, but was dog slow on ADSL. I have a newer D-link
>>> now, but it was ex O2 and is crippled. No SNMP and no syslog
>>
>> I use Draytek Vigor routers, some use AVM Fritz! boxes. The Drayteks
>> don't have monitoring as such, but do support remote SNMP monitoring
>> (of the Internet bandwidth) and all the "usual" port forwarding to
>> connect external things to local web, email, etc. servers.
>>
>> Gordon
>I saw something called a billion ..that seems to meet the specs as well.
>
>Are not Drayteks confined to the Draytel ITSP?

No - they're just bog-standard SIP devices that can connect to any ITSP.

Gordon

In message <h856ag$b7k$(E-Mail Removed)>, The Natural Philosopher
<(E-Mail Removed)> writes
>> What kind of router do you have? And What ISP?
>
>Both subject to change if needs be. I will be moving to IDnet probably
>as part of this whole upgrade.
>
>I've got a couple of D-links and two Belkins lying around..but I am not
>averse to getting something all in one, if only to save power cables..I
>wouldn'y mind a router with pass through and two extra POTS outputs to
>fully drive the PABX. AS much for number diversity as anything else.

As a cheap and cheerful experiment you might want to consider getting a
refurbished Speedtouch 716(with or without wireless) from Digidave off
E-bay (see 110432306808 or 120467308178 although I note his starting
bids have gone up a bit from the £2.99+P&P I paid and the £0.99p + P&P
he was asking for the wireless version)

These come with ADSL, 2 ports for analogue phones, one port for the POTS
phone line so that you can still make calls with the power off (or
divert to POTS) one ADSL port, a router, firewall and a four port
Ethernet switch.

If you replace your existing ADSL router with it should do what you want
fairly easily.

I have mine configured as a simple ATA behind my existing router, (that
is a bit more of a fiddle to set up) and it works just fine.
--
Invalid

Invalid <(E-Mail Removed)> gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying:

> As a cheap and cheerful experiment you might want to consider getting a
> refurbished Speedtouch 716(with or without wireless) from Digidave off
> E-bay (see 110432306808 or 120467308178 although I note his starting
> bids have gone up a bit from the £2.99+P&P I paid and the £0.99p + P&P
> he was asking for the wireless version)

Sorry, but £2.99 for a Thomson Speedtouch is a ripoff. They're truly
dreadful. There's a reason why they're given away by ISPs.