Advice wanted from "super kraftee"

Hi Mr superhelpful Kraftee

Just been trying to help out a neighbour suffering from multiple
disconnections (BT internet subscriber)that has been the same for ages
and he is now finally fed up with it.
His line loss is about 35dB but s/n was only about 3 to 4dB.
Kitz says distance by road is about 3Km - which is quite a long way from
Isleworth Exchange as the cable route is probably that way and may
(unfortunately) even go through a busy (noisy?) high street. the speed
is however well up on Kitz's estimate.
There was a bit of internal BT cabling from the cablehead to an NTE
under the stairs but (naughty me) moved the NTE right to the end of the
u/g cable (no BT block outside - 2pair just disapears into the ground so
couldn't go back any further to test!!)
Replaced his BT Home hub (notoriously bad with poor s/n) with our
TP-Link (which are usually quite good) but only a little better.
Must admit I re-connected the internal wiring so haven't done a
long-term test in the test socket. An ADSL Nation filtered faceplate on
the NTE didn't seem to be any better than using plug-in filters.
If he calls BT around, what does the guy do?
Will he "pull out the stops" to get a better pair or just say "tough luck"

(OK I know you would do your best but I think Brentford in London is
probably outside your area)

Thanks for any comments.

Mike

m wrote:
> Hi Mr superhelpful Kraftee
>
> Just been trying to help out a neighbour suffering from multiple
> disconnections (BT internet subscriber)that has been the same for ages
> and he is now finally fed up with it.
> His line loss is about 35dB but s/n was only about 3 to 4dB.
> Kitz says distance by road is about 3Km - which is quite a long way from
> Isleworth Exchange as the cable route is probably that way and may
> (unfortunately) even go through a busy (noisy?) high street. the speed
> is however well up on Kitz's estimate.
> There was a bit of internal BT cabling from the cablehead to an NTE
> under the stairs but (naughty me) moved the NTE right to the end of the
> u/g cable (no BT block outside - 2pair just disapears into the ground so
> couldn't go back any further to test!!)
> Replaced his BT Home hub (notoriously bad with poor s/n) with our
> TP-Link (which are usually quite good) but only a little better.
> Must admit I re-connected the internal wiring so haven't done a
> long-term test in the test socket. An ADSL Nation filtered faceplate on
> the NTE didn't seem to be any better than using plug-in filters.
> If he calls BT around, what does the guy do?
> Will he "pull out the stops" to get a better pair or just say "tough luck"
>
> (OK I know you would do your best but I think Brentford in London is
> probably outside your area)
>
> Thanks for any comments.
>
> Mike
>
This is the nightmare scenario. You have a basically hot fast line.
Except sometimes it just keels over.

Its the start of a huge wrangle with the ISP that may or may not result
ion problem resolution.


The first thing to do, you have done. switched routers and I assume
slapped it into the faceplate without any phones at all.

Next stage is to see if the analogue POTS service has crackles. If it
does, report it as a voice fault and let the engineers get to it.

If it doesn't - and mine didn't - you have no option but to pester the
ISP who SHOULD get BT openreach on the case. Even if you have to
promised to pay huge sums if they cant find anything wrong.

In my case they replaced by local pair completely (voice fault reported)
very slight difference to speed, drop-outs remained. . They gave me a
new pair from further away back to the exchange. much better signal, but
still disconnected. Finally, after being on a monitor, something was
patently done, because one day the problem vanished.

In MY case the ISP said 'its all upstream errors' 'From me to the DSLAM?
'yes' 'so the problem is near/at the DSLAM?' 'no' at which point I
shut up because it was obvious the support droid was out of his depth -
if the DSLAM was seeing UPSTREAM errors then logically the problem would
be most likely to be where the upstream signal was weakest - at the
exchange end of the cable where its listening to MY transmissions. And
guess what, when the problem did go away nothing changed at my end to
make it do so.

So what you need to do is get absolute proof of what is happening, and
get the process rolling.

Some interference is never resolved..maybe someone somewhere has a noisy
thermostat and its splatting the line ..somewhere down the cable..

Short of walking down the street with a radio..its hard to run down..

Start by describing the problem HERE better, whether there is a pattern
to the disconnects, what exact figures you have..all of it.

Because there is more knowledge her than on most ISP support desks, and
its best to run the issue here first before troubling them. The only
thing they have that here hasn't is access to your dslam port. Plus a
commercial relationship with BT wholesale to kick some ass.

m wrote:
> Hi Mr superhelpful Kraftee
>
> Just been trying to help out a neighbour suffering from multiple
> disconnections (BT internet subscriber)that has been the same for ages
> and he is now finally fed up with it.
> His line loss is about 35dB but s/n was only about 3 to 4dB.
> Kitz says distance by road is about 3Km - which is quite a long way from
> Isleworth Exchange as the cable route is probably that way and may
> (unfortunately) even go through a busy (noisy?) high street. the speed
> is however well up on Kitz's estimate.
> There was a bit of internal BT cabling from the cablehead to an NTE
> under the stairs but (naughty me) moved the NTE right to the end of the
> u/g cable (no BT block outside - 2pair just disapears into the ground so
> couldn't go back any further to test!!)
> Replaced his BT Home hub (notoriously bad with poor s/n) with our
> TP-Link (which are usually quite good) but only a little better.
> Must admit I re-connected the internal wiring so haven't done a
> long-term test in the test socket. An ADSL Nation filtered faceplate on
> the NTE didn't seem to be any better than using plug-in filters.
> If he calls BT around, what does the guy do?
> Will he "pull out the stops" to get a better pair or just say "tough luck"
>
> (OK I know you would do your best but I think Brentford in London is
> probably outside your area)
>
> Thanks for any comments.

Move away from BT to a professional ISP. A&A or Zen ...

-
Graham J

"m" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> Hi Mr superhelpful Kraftee
>
> Just been trying to help out a neighbour suffering from multiple
> disconnections (BT internet subscriber)that has been the same for ages and
> he is now finally fed up with it.
> His line loss is about 35dB but s/n was only about 3 to 4dB.
> Kitz says distance by road is about 3Km - which is quite a long way from
> Isleworth Exchange as the cable route is probably that way and may
> (unfortunately) even go through a busy (noisy?) high street. the speed is
> however well up on Kitz's estimate.
> There was a bit of internal BT cabling from the cablehead to an NTE under
> the stairs but (naughty me) moved the NTE right to the end of the u/g
> cable (no BT block outside - 2pair just disapears into the ground so
> couldn't go back any further to test!!)
> Replaced his BT Home hub (notoriously bad with poor s/n) with our TP-Link
> (which are usually quite good) but only a little better.
> Must admit I re-connected the internal wiring so haven't done a long-term
> test in the test socket. An ADSL Nation filtered faceplate on the NTE
> didn't seem to be any better than using plug-in filters.
> If he calls BT around, what does the guy do?
> Will he "pull out the stops" to get a better pair or just say "tough luck"
>
> (OK I know you would do your best but I think Brentford in London is
> probably outside your area)

The dreaded 3dB trick. Some button counter has come up with the idea that
reducing _everybodies_ SNR to 3dB will automatically give everyone a faster
line. It doesn't, for everyone, and can be a nightmare to get changed.

You've done everything you can do, as for what the Openreach visitor will
do, that will depend on whether he is chasing the stat or whether he wants
to do a good job. He could still hit the wall when he asks for a port flex
and they do it only for the 3dB SNR level to be put straight back on it
again.

If/when the Openreach person turns up they _have_ to do a P(air) Q(uality)
test, or else Openreach doesn't get paid for the visit. Hopefully they will
then try to do a 15 minute sync test. If they can't do that they will have
to track back to where they can do it and then push it back to your friends.

Best of luck to both your friend and the Openreach person who visits, it
could be a frustrating experience for both.

"kraftee" <kraftee:b&e-cottee.me.uk> wrote in message
news:R7ednZb-(E-Mail Removed)...
>
> The dreaded 3dB trick. Some button counter has come up with the idea that
> reducing _everybodies_ SNR to 3dB will automatically give everyone a
> faster line. It doesn't, for everyone, and can be a nightmare to get
> changed.
>
That's interesting, kraftee, are you allowed, or indeed inclined, to divulge
any more?

I've been getting the impression lately that if anything, DSLAMS are prone
to *raise* the target margin on a whim, and maybe reduce it for "good
behaviour" after a month or so. I presumed this was a policy to err on the
side of stability over speed, thereby 'masking' inherent line plant faults
that BTOR wouldn't have to chase.

If 3dB is indeed the new target margin, doesn't the DSLAM increase it
automatically if high errors or dropouts occur?

"198 kHz" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:BKidncQi-(E-Mail Removed)...
>
> "kraftee" <kraftee:b&e-cottee.me.uk> wrote in message
> news:R7ednZb-(E-Mail Removed)...
>>
>> The dreaded 3dB trick. Some button counter has come up with the idea
>> that reducing _everybodies_ SNR to 3dB will automatically give everyone a
>> faster line. It doesn't, for everyone, and can be a nightmare to get
>> changed.
>>
> That's interesting, kraftee, are you allowed, or indeed inclined, to
> divulge any more?
>
> I've been getting the impression lately that if anything, DSLAMS are prone
> to *raise* the target margin on a whim, and maybe reduce it for "good
> behaviour" after a month or so. I presumed this was a policy to err on the
> side of stability over speed, thereby 'masking' inherent line plant faults
> that BTOR wouldn't have to chase.
>
> If 3dB is indeed the new target margin, doesn't the DSLAM increase it
> automatically if high errors or dropouts occur?

Apparently the 3dB is to become (has become) the new standard (well that's
the best I have found out over the last few weeks, with a line manager who
just doesn't care).

You are perfectly correct about DLM (well at least it's not called RAMBO any
more) increasing the SNR base level when there is an apparent problem, but I
have met, in the last few weeks a number of users, where the 3dB SNR level
is the problem and despite the fact their service is dropping it
persistently remains at that level ( sticky proflie???) and in one case
after I asked for a manual profile change it remained at 3 dB afterwards.
Hopefully, if this is what is actually happening, eventually they will come
to their senses but at this present moment in time it can affect any one who
is on the BT DSLAMs so changing provider will not mean you automatically get
moved off.

If I do hear anything more I will of course post it on here, as I always
have done (despite being met with derision from some quarters) but finding
anyone, in England, who actually knows what is happening is becoming harder
to find nowadays with all points of contact now becoming more and more like
script junkies, exactly the same as the overseas departments I also have to
deal with.

On Wed, 30 Nov 2011 14:47:41 -0000, "kraftee"
<kraftee:b&e-cottee.me.uk> wrote:

>
>"198 kHz" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>news:BKidncQi-(E-Mail Removed)...
>>
>> "kraftee" <kraftee:b&e-cottee.me.uk> wrote in message
>> news:R7ednZb-(E-Mail Removed)...
>>>
>>> The dreaded 3dB trick. Some button counter has come up with the idea
>>> that reducing _everybodies_ SNR to 3dB will automatically give everyone a
>>> faster line. It doesn't, for everyone, and can be a nightmare to get
>>> changed.
>>>
>> That's interesting, kraftee, are you allowed, or indeed inclined, to
>> divulge any more?
>>
>> I've been getting the impression lately that if anything, DSLAMS are prone
>> to *raise* the target margin on a whim, and maybe reduce it for "good
>> behaviour" after a month or so. I presumed this was a policy to err on the
>> side of stability over speed, thereby 'masking' inherent line plant faults
>> that BTOR wouldn't have to chase.
>>
>> If 3dB is indeed the new target margin, doesn't the DSLAM increase it
>> automatically if high errors or dropouts occur?
>
>Apparently the 3dB is to become (has become) the new standard (well that's
>the best I have found out over the last few weeks, with a line manager who
>just doesn't care).

Is this just on 21CN/ADSL2+? I've never seen a target margin of less
than 6dB on 20CN. In the past mine has frequently jumped up to 9 or
more even when I am not experiencing any obvious problems.