Advice wanted on Belkin modem/router

My Belkin works fine, most of the time, but every week or so I find I am
unable to connect to my server or any 'net address.
I normally keep the router switched on all day every day.
In desperation I unplugged the router and left it for a couple of minutes.
When I plugged it in again everything worked fine.
This has now happened several times.
I would like to know if it is OK to leave the thing switched on all the
time, I do so because I was told it could lose the settings if switched off?
Also, is there a fault with the router or is it normal to have to switch it
on and off?
Many thanks.

On Fri, 1 Jul 2005 09:47:28 +0000 (UTC), "Bryan"
<Bryan.Jones5@bt(nospam)internet.com> wrote:

>My Belkin works fine,

Which model and do you have the latest firmware installed? You might
be dealing with a firmware bug.

>most of the time, but every week or so I find I am
>unable to connect to my server or any 'net address.

Same here with my Linksys BEFW11S4v4. For a long time, I thought it
was something inherently wrong with the firmware or hardware. Every
few days, I would find the router section effectively hung. Lights
were ok, ethernet to wireless bridging just fine, but the router was
comatose. Cycle the power and it's fixed.

Eventually I found the cause. I was getting attacked from the
internet. The attack was hanging the router. I started sniffing my
incoming traffic and found the attacks. My router is particularly
susceptible because it fails a few router exploit tests.
http://www.pcflank.com/exploits.htm
Mine hangs on two of the test. My WRT54Gv1.1 passes all of them
without a hang.

>I normally keep the router switched on all day every day.

Same here.

>In desperation I unplugged the router and left it for a couple of minutes.
>When I plugged it in again everything worked fine.
>This has now happened several times.

You've performed a "reboot" of sorts. Nothing wrong with doing that.

>I would like to know if it is OK to leave the thing switched on all the
>time, I do so because I was told it could lose the settings if switched off?

That's wrong. It's safe to unplug your router for extended periods.
Your unspecified model Belkin router has NVRAM (non-volatile memory)
that will save your settings literally forever. There is no battery
inside that might discharge itself if there's no AC power applied. In
other words, you could leave it unplugged indefinately, and still
retain your settings. Most routers also have a "save settings to
disk" feature that allows you to backup your settings. If you need to
reload for some reason, then just upload the saved settings. I use
this feature for paranoia, but rarely use it.

>Also, is there a fault with the router or is it normal to have to switch it
>on and off?

Sigh. That's a difficult choice because the answer is half way in
between. The router should be able to run forever, without crashing
or getting clobbered from the internet. At worst, it should have a
"heartbeat" circuit that detects that "something has gone wrong" and
automatically reboots the router. All my SCADA hardware has this
feature including the PC's. You should be able to plug, play, and run
(away).

However, life is not so simple for a cheap router. The key word is
cheap. My Cisco, Sonicwall, and Netscreen routers will stay up
forever. I don't power cycle them after firmware updates. It's
considered a disgrace to call the NOC and have them power cycle a
router. However, these are expensive routers from companies that
consider 24x7 operation a key specification. They will spend the time
and money to insure that uptime is maintained. That's not the case
with Belkin and other cheap routers. If there's a firmware bug or
vulnerability that requires an occassional reboot, most home users can
live with it. It might get fixed in the next release, maybe.
However, with product cycles measured in months, there's no incentive
to make a long life product. So firmware updates stop after a few
months and the initial bugs become permanent.

This is one reason I detest Belkin. Their firmware updates generally
stop at the initial release and never extend for more than about a
year. Linksys, Dlink, and Netgear all consider it important to update
their firmware for the latest features and to fix outstanding bugs,
issues, vulnerabilities, and stability issues on obsolete products.

Anyway, feel free to turn it on and off as many times or at any
interval you feel necessary. I don't think one power cycle every few
weeks is doing all that bad for a cheap router.


--
Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 AE6KS 831-336-2558

Dear Jeff,

Many thanks for your excellent, interesting, and exhaustive reply to my
query, for which I am most grateful.
You have reassured me on at least one or two points which I raised.
I hadn't realised that my Belkin was a cheap one as it was recommended by
several magazines here as their best buy.
The model is an ADSl Modem with Wireless G Router - 54 Mbps, 2.4 GHz
Wireless and I use its wireless function to access my laptop anywhere in the
house and garden, for which it works fine. It does however get very hot,
which is one reason why I was concerned about leaving it on all the time. So
far as I know I have the latest software installed as well.


>>My Belkin works fine,
>
> Which model and do you have the latest firmware installed? You might
> be dealing with a firmware bug.
>
>>most of the time, but every week or so I find I am
>>unable to connect to my server or any 'net address.
>
> Same here with my Linksys BEFW11S4v4. For a long time, I thought it
> was something inherently wrong with the firmware or hardware. Every
> few days, I would find the router section effectively hung. Lights
> were ok, ethernet to wireless bridging just fine, but the router was
> comatose. Cycle the power and it's fixed.

This is precisely what happens with mine, all four lights working but no
connection. It's happened from the very start of installation, i.e., every
two weeks.
>
> Eventually I found the cause. I was getting attacked from the
> internet. The attack was hanging the router. I started sniffing my
> incoming traffic and found the attacks. My router is particularly
> susceptible because it fails a few router exploit tests.
> http://www.pcflank.com/exploits.htm
> Mine hangs on two of the test. My WRT54Gv1.1 passes all of them
> without a hang.

I'll certainly try this site, thanks.
>
>>I normally keep the router switched on all day every day.
>
> Same here.
>
>>In desperation I unplugged the router and left it for a couple of minutes.
>>When I plugged it in again everything worked fine.
>>This has now happened several times.
>
> You've performed a "reboot" of sorts. Nothing wrong with doing that.

Unplugging the power lead does seem a rather crude way of rebooting, I
admit, is there a better way. I believe there is a switch/button which may
restore original configuration but now sure how it works.
>
>>I would like to know if it is OK to leave the thing switched on all the
>>time, I do so because I was told it could lose the settings if switched
>>off?
>
> That's wrong. It's safe to unplug your router for extended periods.
> Your unspecified model Belkin router has NVRAM (non-volatile memory)
> that will save your settings literally forever. There is no battery
> inside that might discharge itself if there's no AC power applied. In
> other words, you could leave it unplugged indefinately, and still
> retain your settings. Most routers also have a "save settings to
> disk" feature that allows you to backup your settings. If you need to
> reload for some reason, then just upload the saved settings. I use
> this feature for paranoia, but rarely use it.
>
This is reassuring, about being safe to unplug, I mean. Don't think I have a
'save settings to disk' feature though.

>>Also, is there a fault with the router or is it normal to have to switch
>>it
>>on and off?
>
> Sigh. That's a difficult choice because the answer is half way in
> between. The router should be able to run forever, without crashing
> or getting clobbered from the internet. At worst, it should have a
> "heartbeat" circuit that detects that "something has gone wrong" and
> automatically reboots the router. All my SCADA hardware has this
> feature including the PC's. You should be able to plug, play, and run
> (away).
>
> However, life is not so simple for a cheap router. The key word is
> cheap. My Cisco, Sonicwall, and Netscreen routers will stay up
> forever. I don't power cycle them after firmware updates. It's
> considered a disgrace to call the NOC and have them power cycle a
> router. However, these are expensive routers from companies that
> consider 24x7 operation a key specification. They will spend the time
> and money to insure that uptime is maintained. That's not the case
> with Belkin and other cheap routers. If there's a firmware bug or
> vulnerability that requires an occassional reboot, most home users can
> live with it. It might get fixed in the next release, maybe.
> However, with product cycles measured in months, there's no incentive
> to make a long life product. So firmware updates stop after a few
> months and the initial bugs become permanent.
>
> This is one reason I detest Belkin. Their firmware updates generally
> stop at the initial release and never extend for more than about a
> year. Linksys, Dlink, and Netgear all consider it important to update
> their firmware for the latest features and to fix outstanding bugs,
> issues, vulnerabilities, and stability issues on obsolete products.
>
> Anyway, feel free to turn it on and off as many times or at any
> interval you feel necessary. I don't think one power cycle every few
> weeks is doing all that bad for a cheap router.

Once again, many thanks for your reply, it's certainly given me something to
think about, particularly when, and if, I buy another router.
>
>
> --
> Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
> 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Santa Cruz CA 95060 AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Fri, 1 Jul 2005 18:57:55 +0000 (UTC), "Bryan"
<Bryan.Jones5@bt(nospam)internet.com> wrote:

>Dear Jeff,
>
>Many thanks for your excellent, interesting, and exhaustive reply to my
>query, for which I am most grateful.
>You have reassured me on at least one or two points which I raised.
>I hadn't realised that my Belkin was a cheap one as it was recommended by
>several magazines here as their best buy.

Well, I shy away from recommending specific equipment. Many reasons
for this including some conflicts of interest. Current favorite is
WRT54G with Sveasoft firmware. However, even model numbers aren't a
good guide as many manufactories go through multiple major hardware
revisions and vendor changes, but retain the same model number. For
example, there are 4 different WRT54G hardware platforms and I don't
know how many "Orinoco" mutations. What the reviewer tested may not
even be the same product. Be careful.

By cheap wireless router, I mean one that costs less than about $100.
I don't like combination units and prefer to buy a router and access
point in separate boxes. If you're looking for quality and
reliability, then you'll need to spend more money. For example:
http://www.sonicwall.com/products/tz170SP_wireless.html
looks much like your Belkin, but costs between $700 to $1200 (list).
And that's for only a 10 user licence. Cisco 350 series access points
go for about $570 list and you still need to buy an additional router.

I could say some nasty things about some of the "reviews" I've read
but I'll limit myself to just one observation. Very few reviews
include any type of long term testing. Most often, the test is an
"out of the box experience" type of gloss over, with zilch on long
term stability, and always to an impossible deadline. I've done a few
of these and find myself disgusted at my own superficial review.
Editors also don't like to allow irreproducible results and transient
anomalies. If you had to scribble a review of your Belkin, and
mention of your occasional hangs would be deleted by the editors
because it can't be easily demonstrated or proven. You also would not
have had enough time to demonstrate that it was chronic.

As a rule, I disregard everything in reviews except numbers. If
someone claims that they got "good performance", I only care how they
tested performance and what numbers they achieved. Same with range,
coverage, reliability, etc. No numbers, no value in the review. Try
the reviews on http://www.tomshardware.com as a good example of what I
like to see.

>The model is an ADSl Modem with Wireless G Router - 54 Mbps, 2.4 GHz
>Wireless and I use its wireless function to access my laptop anywhere in the
>house and garden, for which it works fine. It does however get very hot,
>which is one reason why I was concerned about leaving it on all the time. So
>far as I know I have the latest software installed as well.

Well, all-in-one units are convenient. But what happens when you need
to move and find yourself in cable modem instead of DSL country? What
happens when the next generation of wireless (MIMO) comes out and you
have to toss the entire package just to replace the wireless part.
Never mind the latest high fashion protocols in the router such as
VPN's and support for games that still can't seem to work though the
router. Actually, the most common complaint I hear is when someone
buys a VoIP router as part of a package, and can't figure out how to
"integrate" it into an all-in-one conglomeration. It's the same
philosophy as hi-fi. All-in-one packages are cheaper and neater, but
not better or more versatile. (My hi-fi is a mixed mess of all-in-one
boxes and component stereo boxes. Do like I say, not like I do).

>This is precisely what happens with mine, all four lights working but no
>connection. It's happened from the very start of installation, i.e., every
>two weeks.

It might the effects of overheating. At the price, it's almost worth
the effort to take it apart, drill it full of holes, or maybe add a
tiny fan.

>> http://www.pcflank.com/exploits.htm
>I'll certainly try this site, thanks.

I would be interested in your results.

>Unplugging the power lead does seem a rather crude way of rebooting, I
>admit, is there a better way. I believe there is a switch/button which may
>restore original configuration but now sure how it works.

The button is *TOO* easy. I'm also not sure, but I think it's:
1. tap the button and it just reboots the router.
2. hold the button and it clears all the settings.
There should be something on the Belkin web pile or printed
instructions. I'm too lazy to look and you didn't supply the model
number so I can't do it anyway.

>This is reassuring, about being safe to unplug, I mean. Don't think I have a
>'save settings to disk' feature though.

I'm not 100.0% sure, but most routers have this feature somewhere.


--
Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 AE6KS 831-336-2558