ADSL unreliability

Fault is characterised be periods of several days of a good connection,
interspersed by periods of minutes to tens of hours of total failure. While
failure is present router simply shows "Initialisation", "Reset" or
"Ready" - just as if it were disconnected from the line.

ISP reports (these are min/max/avg figures over 24 hours)

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" """""""""""""""""""

RRT Downstream trends (min / max / avg)
Line rate: 0 / 2016 / 1628
Noise margin: 5 / 25 / 15
Transmission Errors: 0 / 3600 / 2614
Line Attenuation: 42 / 45 / 44
Uptime: 900 / 86128 / 64256
Initializations: 0 / 424 / 1202

RRT Upstream trends (min / max / avg)
Line rate: 0 / 448 / 426
Noise margin: 8 / 26 / 22
Transmission Errors: 0 / 3600 / 3111
Line Attenuation: 27 / 35 / 33

This circuit is up 74.0% of the time

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" """"""""""""""""""""
(Don't understand their "Initialisations" figure - how can the average be 3
times greater than the maximum?)

Router has been replaced
Microfilter has been replaced
Microfilter is plugged into test socket
There is no extension phone wiring connected
Phone has been replaced.

ISP has called out Openreach, who confirm that the line is "perfect", and
have performed a "Lift & Shift".

Is there any way the ISP can get BT to monitor the line, so that they
investigate WHILE THE FAULT IS PRESENT ??????????????

--
Graham J

Graham J wrote:
> Fault is characterised be periods of several days of a good connection,
> interspersed by periods of minutes to tens of hours of total failure. While
> failure is present router simply shows "Initialisation", "Reset" or
> "Ready" - just as if it were disconnected from the line.
>
> ISP reports (these are min/max/avg figures over 24 hours)
>
> """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" """""""""""""""""""
>
> RRT Downstream trends (min / max / avg)
> Line rate: 0 / 2016 / 1628
> Noise margin: 5 / 25 / 15
> Transmission Errors: 0 / 3600 / 2614
> Line Attenuation: 42 / 45 / 44
> Uptime: 900 / 86128 / 64256
> Initializations: 0 / 424 / 1202
>
> RRT Upstream trends (min / max / avg)
> Line rate: 0 / 448 / 426
> Noise margin: 8 / 26 / 22
> Transmission Errors: 0 / 3600 / 3111
> Line Attenuation: 27 / 35 / 33
>
> This circuit is up 74.0% of the time
>
> """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" """"""""""""""""""""
> (Don't understand their "Initialisations" figure - how can the average be 3
> times greater than the maximum?)
>
> Router has been replaced
> Microfilter has been replaced
> Microfilter is plugged into test socket
> There is no extension phone wiring connected
> Phone has been replaced.
>
> ISP has called out Openreach, who confirm that the line is "perfect", and
> have performed a "Lift & Shift".
>
> Is there any way the ISP can get BT to monitor the line, so that they
> investigate WHILE THE FAULT IS PRESENT ??????????????
>

this looks like a faulty line. Subject to high bursts of interference.

There is a way YOU can monitor the line. And present facts to BT and
your ISP. But its not trivial. You need to monitor the router stats
automatically 24x7 and collect the data. I use SNMP and MRTG. Cos I am a
linux geek :-)

(http://www.tempest.templar.co.uk/router/)

There are other things that I could monitor, but that was enough for me
to see more or less what was going on.

There are similar windows programs available.

Armed with that, you can look for patterns.

And tell BT or your ISP that you have a problem. And can prove it.

"The Natural Philosopher" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:i3jmlf$fh4$(E-Mail Removed)...
[snip]
>
> this looks like a faulty line. Subject to high bursts of interference.
>
> There is a way YOU can monitor the line. And present facts to BT and your
> ISP. But its not trivial. You need to monitor the router stats
> automatically 24x7 and collect the data. I use SNMP and MRTG. Cos I am a
> linux geek :-)
>
> (http://www.tempest.templar.co.uk/router/)
>
> There are other things that I could monitor, but that was enough for me to
> see more or less what was going on.
>
> There are similar windows programs available.
>
> Armed with that, you can look for patterns.
>
> And tell BT or your ISP that you have a problem. And can prove it.

I know there is a problem.
My ISP knows there is a problem.
The stats the ISP provided show that the line is subject to bursts of
interference. Ths ISP also has monitoring to show when this has occurred.

I doubt that knowing more about the router stats will help. Will it tell me
where the fault is, and what is causing it? Will it tell Openreach what to
fix?

-- Graham J

Graham J wrote:
> "The Natural Philosopher" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:i3jmlf$fh4$(E-Mail Removed)...
> [snip]
>> this looks like a faulty line. Subject to high bursts of interference.
>>
>> There is a way YOU can monitor the line. And present facts to BT and your
>> ISP. But its not trivial. You need to monitor the router stats
>> automatically 24x7 and collect the data. I use SNMP and MRTG. Cos I am a
>> linux geek :-)
>>
>> (http://www.tempest.templar.co.uk/router/)
>>
>> There are other things that I could monitor, but that was enough for me to
>> see more or less what was going on.
>>
>> There are similar windows programs available.
>>
>> Armed with that, you can look for patterns.
>>
>> And tell BT or your ISP that you have a problem. And can prove it.
>
> I know there is a problem.
> My ISP knows there is a problem.
> The stats the ISP provided show that the line is subject to bursts of
> interference. Ths ISP also has monitoring to show when this has occurred.
>
> I doubt that knowing more about the router stats will help. Will it tell me
> where the fault is, and what is causing it? Will it tell Openreach what to
> fix?
>

It MIGHT. If there were some particular time it happened, or could be
correlated with e.g. rain storms etc.

I can see issues in winter when certain thermostats in the house cut in
and out.

For example.

BUT probably what you want to ask BT to do, is to give you another pair
back to the exchange.


> -- Graham J
>
>

"The Natural Philosopher" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:i3jo6e$hci$(E-Mail Removed)...
[snip]
>
> BUT probably what you want to ask BT to do, is to give you another pair
> back to the exchange.
>
Ah Yes! That well known solution - give the problem lines to some other
poor bugger!

--
Graham J

Graham J wrote:
> "The Natural Philosopher" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:i3jo6e$hci$(E-Mail Removed)...
> [snip]
>> BUT probably what you want to ask BT to do, is to give you another pair
>> back to the exchange.
>>
> Ah Yes! That well known solution - give the problem lines to some other
> poor bugger!
>
I THINK they are suppose to tag a given line as 'unsuitable for broadband'

Or indeed for anything. ;-)

On 07/08/2010 16:24, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> Graham J wrote:
>> "The Natural Philosopher" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>> news:i3jo6e$hci$(E-Mail Removed)...
>> [snip]
>>> BUT probably what you want to ask BT to do, is to give you another
>>> pair back to the exchange.
>>>
>> Ah Yes! That well known solution - give the problem lines to some
>> other poor bugger!
>>
> I THINK they are suppose to tag a given line as 'unsuitable for broadband'
>
> Or indeed for anything. ;-)
>
It worked for me recently, after many weeks of intermittent and frequent
drop-outs, and (I've lost count, I think it was) four Openreach visits.
A swapped "E" side from the cabinet to the exchange seems to have done
the trick.
My connection has now been up for over two days now, as opposed to hours
- or minutes - beforehand.
Full marks to my ISP - Plusnet - for refusing to let things lie and
keeping BT on the case.
Not so many marks to the various Openreach techs who visited (apart from
the last one) and went away again without sorting things out.
Mind you, someone else might now be "enjoying" my old dodgy "E" side link!

George

[snip]
>
>>I know there is a problem.
>>My ISP knows there is a problem.
>>The stats the ISP provide show that the line is subject to bursts of
>>interference. Ths ISP also has monitoring to show when this has occurred.
>
> You need to keep pestering your ISP. Which ISP is it BTW?
>
>>I doubt that knowing more about the router stats will help. Will it tell
>>me
>>where the fault is, and what is causing it? Will it tell Openreach what
>>to
>>fix?
>
> If there's a pattern to the problem then this information may help.

An update for you all:

ISP = Zen

Line data for the 14 days to 4 August:
RRT Downstream trends (min / max / avg)
Line rate: 0 / 2016 / 1628
Noise margin: 5 / 25 / 15
Transmission Errors: 0 / 3600 / 2614
Line Attenuation: 42 / 45 / 44
Uptime: 900 / 86128 / 64256
Initializations: 0 / 424 / 1202
RRT Upstream trends (min / max / avg)
Line rate: 0 / 448 / 426
Noise margin: 8 / 26 / 22
Transmission Errors: 0 / 3600 / 3111
Line Attenuation: 27 / 35 / 33

Connection drops: varying from 1 to 12 per day
No pattern to changes in performance.

26 July: Zen attempt to report fault to BT. BT system says there is a
"Copper Line Test" fault, so refuses to accept the report. I report "Copper
Line Test" failure to BT as a voice fault.

29 July: Openreach tech on site, cannot find any "Copper Line Test" fault,
departs having changed nothing.

30 July: BT site still says "Copper Line Test" fault is being repaired. By
late afternoon Zen are able to log the ADSL fault, appointment booked for 4
July.

3 Aug: Zen call to say that Openreach booking system has screwed up and they
cannot say whether Openreach will visit on 4 Aug. Will re-book as soon as
Openreach system is working.

4 Aug: Openreach technician attends site. His tests include JDSU and PQ.
Finds nothing wrong! But recommends a Lift & Shift.

5 Aug: Zen book SFI (Special Faults Investigation) with Openreach.

6 Aug: Lift & Shift completed. Line dropped at 12:29 restored at 14:21 -
does a lift & shift really take that long?

9 Aug: Openreach find that 5 pairs enter property from underground, but only
1 pair on DP on pole in street (there are 2 voice lines in service at the
premises). Promise to send digging crew on12 Aug.

12 Aug: no digging crew, but Openreach claim to have checked and tested
joint at bottom of pole. Also claim the pair from nearby green cabinet to
exchange is faulty, so swap pairs.

12 Aug 17:57 MSR and FTR changed, both now 288. Previously were MSR=2016 &
FTR=1612. Is this a mean trick applied by BT to discourage claims of
unreliability or poor performance? Also profile changed to "Fast" at 18:00.

13 Aug: Profile changed to "Interleave" at 09:50

Today (16 August) performance over weekend has been much the same:
Down speed 512k min / 4928k max
SNR margin 0dB min / 26dB max
Attenuation 39dB min / 47dB max

The only significant change is the larger variation in line attenuation.
There is sometimes (unsurprisingly) a slighly faster maximum data rate when
the attenuation is 39dB.

Zen continue to progress the fault with Openreach.

The remedial work by BT seems to be limited to making random changes.
There's no evidence that they monitor the line with the intention of
discovering the cause of the fault. Does anybody know whether they have any
such capability?

--
Graham J

Meanwhile, at the uk.telecom.broadband Job Justification Hearings, Graham J
chose the tried and tested strategy of:

> There's no evidence that they monitor the line with the intention of
> discovering the cause of the fault. Does anybody know whether they have
> any such capability?

AFAICT they only ever use their monitoring data in order to show you that
there's no fault.

--
<http://ale.cx/> (AIM:troffasky) ((E-Mail Removed))
22:01:50 up 4 days, 49 min, 6 users, load average: 0.15, 0.04, 0.01
Qua illic est accuso, illic est a vindicatum