ADSL causing noise on voice line - Help!

What do you make of this - I have an ongoing problem and am at my
wit's end. It's a bit long and I apologise, but I'd be grateful for
any suggestions.

I have a Netgear DG834 wireless ADSL modem router and it's causing
high noise levels on my phone line to such an extent that it's hard to
hold a telephone conversation. I have a BT phone line and my ISP is
freedom2surf. I'm on Max ADSL and about 1km from the exchange as the
crow flies.

My setup is this....
Phone line comes into house in hallway to a BT NTE5 master socket. I
have fitted an ADSLnation filtered faceplate in place of the BT front
cover. There are no satellite phone extensions running off this box.

Into the voice side of the faceplate this I have a 2-way phone
splitter - one line runs to a 'normal' phone also in the hallway - one
line runs to a mains powered DECT cordless phone in the kitchen.
My ADSL router is in an upstairs bedroom and is connected to the
faceplate with a CAT5 twisted pair cable also from ADSLnation.

When the router is plugged in there's a hell of a lot of noise on the
phone line which is evident on both phones - when I unplug the router
the noise goes away - plug it back in and the noise returns
immediately. It seems as if the router is feeing back noise into the
phone line but I didn't know this was even possible. I don't think
it's the phones - I can disconnect either of them and the noise
remains on the other one - it has to be the router surely?

In an attempt to diagnose the problem I've tried the following;

Removed the faceplate and plugged an in-line filter into the hidden
master socket to bypass the faceplate - plug phones in, no noise -
plug router in also and noise appears immediately.
(Is this conclusive proof the problem is 'in the house' and not BT's
cabling or are other factors at play here)

Bring router downstairs and plug into filtered faceplate using a fresh
short modem cable to bypass the other, longer one that runs up to the
bedroom - noise remains.

Replace Netgear PSU with a different make of same rating - noise
remains though I kind of convinced myself it was less obtrusive - may
be my imagination.

I'm not in a position to try another router though I'm coming round to
the idea that I may have to buy a replacement if only to eliminate the
present one from the equation.

Here are my line stats - I'm losing sync frequently and my connection
speed is dropping off rapidly necessitating frequent router reboots -
I've suffered 6 'loss of syncs' in the last 20 minutes.
Stats are variable but this is typical...
Upstream Line attn:4.5dB Noise margin:17dB
Downstream Line attn:16dB Noise margin:13dB

What's my next move - what should I try next in order to pin it down.
Thanks in advance.

<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed) oups.com...
> What do you make of this - I have an ongoing problem and am at my
> wit's end. It's a bit long and I apologise, but I'd be grateful for
> any suggestions.
>
> I have a Netgear DG834 wireless ADSL modem router and it's causing
> high noise levels on my phone line to such an extent that it's hard to
> hold a telephone conversation. I have a BT phone line and my ISP is
> freedom2surf. I'm on Max ADSL and about 1km from the exchange as the
> crow flies.
>
> My setup is this....
> Phone line comes into house in hallway to a BT NTE5 master socket. I
> have fitted an ADSLnation filtered faceplate in place of the BT front
> cover. There are no satellite phone extensions running off this box.
>
> Into the voice side of the faceplate this I have a 2-way phone
> splitter - one line runs to a 'normal' phone also in the hallway - one
> line runs to a mains powered DECT cordless phone in the kitchen.
> My ADSL router is in an upstairs bedroom and is connected to the
> faceplate with a CAT5 twisted pair cable also from ADSLnation.
>
> When the router is plugged in there's a hell of a lot of noise on the
> phone line which is evident on both phones - when I unplug the router
> the noise goes away - plug it back in and the noise returns
> immediately. It seems as if the router is feeing back noise into the
> phone line but I didn't know this was even possible. I don't think
> it's the phones - I can disconnect either of them and the noise
> remains on the other one - it has to be the router surely?
>
> In an attempt to diagnose the problem I've tried the following;
>
> Removed the faceplate and plugged an in-line filter into the hidden
> master socket to bypass the faceplate - plug phones in, no noise -
> plug router in also and noise appears immediately.
> (Is this conclusive proof the problem is 'in the house' and not BT's
> cabling or are other factors at play here)
>
> Bring router downstairs and plug into filtered faceplate using a fresh
> short modem cable to bypass the other, longer one that runs up to the
> bedroom - noise remains.
>
> Replace Netgear PSU with a different make of same rating - noise
> remains though I kind of convinced myself it was less obtrusive - may
> be my imagination.
>
> I'm not in a position to try another router though I'm coming round to
> the idea that I may have to buy a replacement if only to eliminate the
> present one from the equation.
>
> Here are my line stats - I'm losing sync frequently and my connection
> speed is dropping off rapidly necessitating frequent router reboots -
> I've suffered 6 'loss of syncs' in the last 20 minutes.
> Stats are variable but this is typical...
> Upstream Line attn:4.5dB Noise margin:17dB
> Downstream Line attn:16dB Noise margin:13dB
>
> What's my next move - what should I try next in order to pin it down.
> Thanks in advance.
>

You have a poor joint somewhere in the line.
If it happens using the test socket then its on BTs side.
Log onto their web site and report a fault and it will test the line and
tell you where it is, if it can

On 2007-04-28, (E-Mail Removed) <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> Here are my line stats - I'm losing sync frequently and my connection
> speed is dropping off rapidly necessitating frequent router reboots -
> I've suffered 6 'loss of syncs' in the last 20 minutes.
> Stats are variable but this is typical...
> Upstream Line attn:4.5dB Noise margin:17dB
> Downstream Line attn:16dB Noise margin:13dB

These are good numbers. Does your router have trouble maintaining
synchronization even with the phones unplugged? How about with
one phone plugged in through the inline filter?

> What's my next move - what should I try next in order to pin it down.
> Thanks in advance.

I think you need to replace the router (I'd be more positive of this
if your router won't keep sync with no phones attached). The way this
is supposed to work is that the phones and the router are kept apart
by frequency separation. The filter is supposed to keep the high
frequencies out of the phones, while the router is supposed to only
put high frequencies onto the wiring. Since there is some evidence
that the filter is indeed eliminating the high frequencies (since
both filters behave the same way) then the next possibility is that
your router is injecting low frequency noise into the wiring. A router
which does this is broken.

Dennis Ferguson

dennis@home wrote:
> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:(E-Mail Removed) oups.com...
>> What do you make of this - I have an ongoing problem and am at my
>> wit's end. It's a bit long and I apologise, but I'd be grateful for
>> any suggestions.
>>
>> I have a Netgear DG834 wireless ADSL modem router and it's causing
>> high noise levels on my phone line to such an extent that it's
>> hard to hold a telephone conversation. I have a BT phone line and
>> my ISP is freedom2surf. I'm on Max ADSL and about 1km from the
>> exchange as the crow flies.
>>
>> My setup is this....
>> Phone line comes into house in hallway to a BT NTE5 master socket.
>> I have fitted an ADSLnation filtered faceplate in place of the BT
>> front cover. There are no satellite phone extensions running off
>> this box. Into the voice side of the faceplate this I have a 2-way
>> phone
>> splitter - one line runs to a 'normal' phone also in the hallway -
>> one line runs to a mains powered DECT cordless phone in the
>> kitchen. My ADSL router is in an upstairs bedroom and is connected
>> to the
>> faceplate with a CAT5 twisted pair cable also from ADSLnation.
>>
>> When the router is plugged in there's a hell of a lot of noise on
>> the phone line which is evident on both phones - when I unplug the
>> router the noise goes away - plug it back in and the noise returns
>> immediately. It seems as if the router is feeing back noise into
>> the phone line but I didn't know this was even possible. I don't
>> think it's the phones - I can disconnect either of them and the
>> noise remains on the other one - it has to be the router surely?
>>
>> In an attempt to diagnose the problem I've tried the following;
>>
>> Removed the faceplate and plugged an in-line filter into the hidden
>> master socket to bypass the faceplate - plug phones in, no noise -
>> plug router in also and noise appears immediately.
>> (Is this conclusive proof the problem is 'in the house' and not
>> BT's cabling or are other factors at play here)
>>
>> Bring router downstairs and plug into filtered faceplate using a
>> fresh short modem cable to bypass the other, longer one that runs
>> up to the bedroom - noise remains.
>>
>> Replace Netgear PSU with a different make of same rating - noise
>> remains though I kind of convinced myself it was less obtrusive -
>> may be my imagination.
>>
>> I'm not in a position to try another router though I'm coming
>> round to the idea that I may have to buy a replacement if only to
>> eliminate the present one from the equation.
>>
>> Here are my line stats - I'm losing sync frequently and my
>> connection speed is dropping off rapidly necessitating frequent
>> router reboots - I've suffered 6 'loss of syncs' in the last 20
>> minutes. Stats are variable but this is typical...
>> Upstream Line attn:4.5dB Noise margin:17dB
>> Downstream Line attn:16dB Noise margin:13dB
>>
>> What's my next move - what should I try next in order to pin it
>> down. Thanks in advance.
>>
>
> You have a poor joint somewhere in the line.
> If it happens using the test socket then its on BTs side.
> Log onto their web site and report a fault and it will test the
> line and tell you where it is, if it can

The problem with that is that many field engineers will just test for
dial tone & not bother about BOTH dial tone & ADSL & so will raise
charges for the visit. Hell it's what they have been instructed to
do, they don't have any choice in the matter nowadays (all in the name
of compliance).

The correct way is to report your DSL problems with your ISP (even if
it's BT Broadband, make sure you are talking to one of their frontdesk
personel not to a BT person) hopefully when you get the visit they
will find the cause of the drop outs & in doing so find the source of
your analogue noise problem.

At a guess I would say you have a HR dis at the DP or even at your
eaves, just dealt with one today where I had to replace 4 spans of
dropwire, the problem was in there somewhere but I couldn't get a fix
so replaced the lot. 90 minutes after the work was completed still no
errors (which I think proves my point to my VOM who keeps on at me to
raise charges if it tests ok), but I have known it to be a loose crimp
in a UG joint as well before now

[snip]

> The correct way is to report your DSL problems with your ISP (even if it's
> BT Broadband, make sure you are talking to one of their frontdesk personel
> not to a BT person) hopefully when you get the visit they will find the
> cause of the drop outs & in doing so find the source of your analogue
> noise problem.

If that doesn't work your first step is to change to an ISP that understands
the problem. Zen are well recommended. The ISP will then communicate with
BT and arrange for a suitably skilled technician to attend the site and fix
the problem

--
Graham J

Here are some further tests I did at the suggestion of someone on
another forum - does it help identify what's at fault?

Router syncs initially at 8096kbps drops over short time to around
2000kbps then can drop further to around 160kbps!

Test results:
'Remove the faceplate and plug an inline filter in the test socket.
Dont plug the phones in yet... or the BT doubler.
Plug the cable in for the router'.

Sync 8096 d/strm 448 u/strm
Down UP
LA 15dB 3.5dB
NM 15dB 27dB
--------------------------------------------------
'Plug in normal phone'
Sync 8096 d/strm 448 u/strm
Down UP
LA 15dB 3.5dB
NM 14dB 27dB
-----------------------------------------------------------------
'Remove normal phone - plug in DECT phone'
Sync 8096 d/strm 448 u/strm
Down UP
LA 15dB 3.5dB
NM 13dB 27dB
-------------------------------------------------------------------
'Insert BT doubler and both phones'
Sync 8096 d/strm 448 u/strm
Down UP
LA 15dB 3.5dB
NM 15dB 27dB
-----------------------------------------------------------
* Sync drops off on next test *
'Pick up the (normal) phone to open the circuit'
Sync 3552 d/strm 448 u/strm
Down UP
LA 15dB 3.5dB
NM 14dB 19dB
-------------------------------------------------------------------
after a minute or two this drops off to...
Sync 160d/strm 288u/strm
Down UP
LA 13dB 3.5dB
NM 11dB 6dB
--------------------------------------------------
....put phone back on hook...
Sync 160d/strm 288u/strm
Down UP
LA 13dB 3.5dB
NM 27dB 6dB
---------------------------------------------------
open phone line with DECT phone...
Sync 160d/strm 288u/strm
Down UP
LA 13dB 3.5dB
NM 28dB 6dB
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
put everything back together - refit faceplate & plug in Cat5 - plug
in doubler & two phones
Sync 8128d/strm 448u/strm
Down UP
LA 15dB 3.5dB
NM 13dB 28dB

...and it's been like that for about ten minutes...

<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed) oups.com...
> What do you make of this - I have an ongoing problem and am at my
> wit's end. It's a bit long and I apologise, but I'd be grateful for
> any suggestions.
>
> I have a Netgear DG834 wireless ADSL modem router and it's causing
> high noise levels on my phone line to such an extent that it's hard to
> hold a telephone conversation. I have a BT phone line and my ISP is
> freedom2surf. I'm on Max ADSL and about 1km from the exchange as the
> crow flies.
>
> My setup is this....
> Phone line comes into house in hallway to a BT NTE5 master socket. I
> have fitted an ADSLnation filtered faceplate in place of the BT front
> cover. There are no satellite phone extensions running off this box.
>
> Into the voice side of the faceplate this I have a 2-way phone
> splitter - one line runs to a 'normal' phone also in the hallway - one
> line runs to a mains powered DECT cordless phone in the kitchen.
> My ADSL router is in an upstairs bedroom and is connected to the
> faceplate with a CAT5 twisted pair cable also from ADSLnation.
>
> When the router is plugged in there's a hell of a lot of noise on the
> phone line which is evident on both phones - when I unplug the router
> the noise goes away - plug it back in and the noise returns
> immediately. It seems as if the router is feeing back noise into the
> phone line but I didn't know this was even possible. I don't think
> it's the phones - I can disconnect either of them and the noise
> remains on the other one - it has to be the router surely?
>
> In an attempt to diagnose the problem I've tried the following;
>
> Removed the faceplate and plugged an in-line filter into the hidden
> master socket to bypass the faceplate - plug phones in, no noise -
> plug router in also and noise appears immediately.
> (Is this conclusive proof the problem is 'in the house' and not BT's
> cabling or are other factors at play here)
>
> Bring router downstairs and plug into filtered faceplate using a fresh
> short modem cable to bypass the other, longer one that runs up to the
> bedroom - noise remains.
>
> Replace Netgear PSU with a different make of same rating - noise
> remains though I kind of convinced myself it was less obtrusive - may
> be my imagination.
>
> I'm not in a position to try another router though I'm coming round to
> the idea that I may have to buy a replacement if only to eliminate the
> present one from the equation.
>
> Here are my line stats - I'm losing sync frequently and my connection
> speed is dropping off rapidly necessitating frequent router reboots -
> I've suffered 6 'loss of syncs' in the last 20 minutes.
> Stats are variable but this is typical...
> Upstream Line attn:4.5dB Noise margin:17dB
> Downstream Line attn:16dB Noise margin:13dB
>
> What's my next move - what should I try next in order to pin it down.
> Thanks in advance.
>
It's a high resistance phone line, all your symptoms are the same as I had
for over a year but I had phone crackling sometimes also but BT always said
the line was OK. A BT engineer came out to sort out the sync drop outs at
the beginning of this period, he made it good enough not to drop out at 2Mb,
but once I changed ISP and went to MaxADSL 8Mb it got worse again as I half
expected. My phone was noisy off and on throughout all this period but
getting BT to sort it was impossible as it was always OK when they checked.

Anyway, all of a sudden after a week or two of rain the phone noises got
much worse and when I called BT again, at last they could hear it at their
end. By the way, so could my new ISP who rightfully said there was no way
that they could get BT to come out to fix the ADSL dropouts (now much worse)
if the line was noisy and that I had to get BT out to fix the noisy phone.
BT were willing to sort it as a noisy phone problem, not an ADSL problem,
and I was lucky enough to get a good engineer who persevered until it was
fixed. The problem was cables submerged in water with no trunking, luckily
there was a spare pair that worked fine and have done so for the last 6
months.

Your best bet is to get it sorted as a noisy BT phone, have you got any
crackles at all when the router's off.

Thanks SteveB
> Your best bet is to get it sorted as a noisy BT phone, have you got any
> crackles at all when the router's off.

I'll check that out asap.

Meanwhile, who did you chase up at BT - did you progress it through
the automated line test procedure or did you call a department where
you could actually speak to an engineer?

I hope I don't end up between a rock and a hard place where no-one is
willing to take responsibility....

<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed) ups.com...
> Thanks SteveB
>> Your best bet is to get it sorted as a noisy BT phone, have you got any
>> crackles at all when the router's off.
>
> I'll check that out asap.

Intermittent line noise is a useful fault to have in these circumstances.
;-)

On 2007-04-29, (E-Mail Removed) <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> Down UP
> LA 15dB 3.5dB

I'll just point out that I'm having trouble believing you have a
line resistance fault when the router is measuring these tiny
line attenuation numbers. If that's what you get with a bad
connection you must be living inside the exchange. It could be
intermittent, I guess, but then I'd expect the noise on the
phone to be intermittent as well.

I'd still make sure it isn't the router before settling on the
assumption that the problem is with the line.

Dennis Ferguson