802.11g vs b (and why I hate my wireless adapter)

Hi everyone,

So, I have a Satellite A85-S107 with an Atheros AR5005G wireless
adapter (with the 3.1.2.45 driver) and I'm having this issue where, I
can be sitting dead-square in front of a 802.11b access point and I can
"see" the access point using different utilities, but the adapter will
absolutely not connect to it.

Yet, if there is even the slightest chance that there is an 802.11g
access point on my side of the planet, this puppy will do everything in
its power to connect to the g.

Worse yet, if I have the above combined into one situation, my
computer hopelessly looks for g's when there's plenty of b's.

Please, if the above alphabet soup makes sense to you, tell me if
there's a way to have my adapter choose WHATEVER'S STRONGEST/CLOSEST,
as opposed to this elitist mentality that it currently uses to shoot
itself (and me) in the foot. The adapter is supposedly 802.11b/g
compatible, but I'm just not seeing it.

Thanks

[none] wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> So, I have a Satellite A85-S107 with an Atheros AR5005G wireless
> adapter (with the 3.1.2.45 driver) and I'm having this issue where, I
> can be sitting dead-square in front of a 802.11b access point and I
> can "see" the access point using different utilities, but the adapter
> will absolutely not connect to it.
>
> Yet, if there is even the slightest chance that there is an 802.11g
> access point on my side of the planet, this puppy will do everything
> in its power to connect to the g.
>
> Worse yet, if I have the above combined into one situation, my
> computer hopelessly looks for g's when there's plenty of b's.
>
> Please, if the above alphabet soup makes sense to you, tell me if
> there's a way to have my adapter choose WHATEVER'S STRONGEST/CLOSEST,
> as opposed to this elitist mentality that it currently uses to shoot
> itself (and me) in the foot. The adapter is supposedly 802.11b/g
> compatible, but I'm just not seeing it.
>
> Thanks

Open the card properties in Device Manager, and look for an Auto
setting. It is likely set to "g" only.

Q

"[none]" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>So, I have a Satellite A85-S107 with an Atheros AR5005G wireless
>adapter (with the 3.1.2.45 driver) and I'm having this issue where, I
>can be sitting dead-square in front of a 802.11b access point and I can
>"see" the access point using different utilities, but the adapter will
>absolutely not connect to it.

[I assume that's the latest driver from Toshiba? I'm not seeing
drivers on the Atheros site...]

Is there anything in the driver that'll allow you to pick your
preferred mode, or select "B Only"? Check the Device Manager...

On 15 Dec 2005 05:05:51 -0800, "[none]" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>So, I have a Satellite A85-S107 with an Atheros AR5005G wireless
>adapter (with the 3.1.2.45 driver) and I'm having this issue where, I
>can be sitting dead-square in front of a 802.11b access point and I can
>"see" the access point using different utilities, but the adapter will
>absolutely not connect to it.

What's the make and model of your 802.11b access point?

Other have suggested the "g-only" mode as a potential culprit. It's
possible but as I recall, the access point is what determines if it's
going to play g, b, or both, not the client. Dunno, but it's worth
checking.

>Yet, if there is even the slightest chance that there is an 802.11g
>access point on my side of the planet, this puppy will do everything in
>its power to connect to the g.

I like to troubleshoot things by substitution. Some questions:

1. Are you using Windoze Wireless Zero Config as a client/driver or
are you using the Atheros monitor program? Windoze WZC has a feature
in the advanced settings that says something like "connect to any
available access point". That may not be the cause but it certainly
will not help if it's checked. Also, edit the preferred order of
SSID's that it will try to connect. If it's really full of other
SSID's and you're is at the bottom, it may never get around to
connecting.

2. It's not clear if you are able to connect to your 802.11b access
point in the absense of 802.11g traffic. Is this the case? If not,
then it may be a simple WEP or WPA key mismatch that's causing the
client radio to look for alternative access points. Can you connect
at all? If not, have you tried connecting to your 802.11b access
point with another wireless client? If it's misconfigured or
defective, nothing will connect.

3. Can your client radio connect to any of the other 802.11g access
points that it hears? I'm trying to determine if the Atheros card and
driver are actually functional

4. I've seen flakey RADIUS authentication servers do something
vaguely similar when AP can't find the authentication server. Are you
using RADIUS?

>Worse yet, if I have the above combined into one situation, my
>computer hopelessly looks for g's when there's plenty of b's.

>Please, if the above alphabet soup makes sense to you, tell me if
>there's a way to have my adapter choose WHATEVER'S STRONGEST/CLOSEST,
>as opposed to this elitist mentality that it currently uses to shoot
>itself (and me) in the foot. The adapter is supposedly 802.11b/g
>compatible, but I'm just not seeing it.

You'll have to wait for 802.11r to be released, which will do that in
addition to fast roaming and switching between access points.

--
Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[none] <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> So, I have a Satellite A85-S107 with an Atheros AR5005G wireless
> adapter (with the 3.1.2.45 driver) and I'm having this issue where, I
> can be sitting dead-square in front of a 802.11b access point and I can
> "see" the access point using different utilities, but the adapter will
> absolutely not connect to it.

Is this an Atheros card, or an Atheros chipset on someon else's branded
card?

Does this card have "extendedor "turbo" abilities on 802.11b?
I could not get my SMC-something card to connect to a Netgear WGR614v4
until I disabled the 22Mbps mode on the SMC card.

---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5

Thank you all for your replies! I'll answer your questions as they
appeared:

Quaoar: No, there's no option like that unfortunately; that would be a
nice fix

Mr. Smith: Yes, that's the latest driver from Toshiba. I don't know
why Atheros doesn't have customer support options...

Mr Liebermann: I think they're all SMC. I'll check for the model #s
No, I can't connect to 802.11b APs at all. All of our APs have the
same SSIDs (and thus all take the same WEP password), it's just that
some are b and some are g. I can't connect to any of the Bs but CAN
connect to the Gs. Do you think I need to change my Authentication
Method from "Open" to "shared"?

Mr Dold: This is a real Atheros card and chipset as far as I can tell.
As for the "turbo" mode, no, all is has is a long and short word
option, that's about it.

Any ideas folks?

thanks for the help thus far!!

On 16 Dec 2005 05:39:21 -0800, "[none]" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>Mr Liebermann: I think they're all SMC. I'll check for the model #s
> No, I can't connect to 802.11b APs at all. All of our APs have the
>same SSIDs (and thus all take the same WEP password), it's just that
>some are b and some are g.

You didn't mention that they all had the same SSID. With all the
SSID's identical, you have zero control over which access point your
client will connect. Most, if not all, client software does not offer
you a selection of SSID/MAC addresses, just a selection of SSID.

Incidentally, how do you know that you're connecting to the "g" and
not the "b" AP's if all the access points use the same SSID? By the
MAC address? By the speed?

I've seen this before and I don't think it's fixable. The problem is
that the "philosphy" of the driver writers is to always use the
fastest connection possible. There's also a tendency to have the
access points control the connection instead of the client. With a
network of identical SSID access points, the Toshiba/Atheros client
will always try to connect to the fastest, not the strongest, access
point. If you temporarily setup an 802.11b access point with a
different SSID, you'll find that you can easily connect.

I temporarily "solved" (kludged) a similar derrangement of mixed
access points by setting the speed on the 802.11g access points to a
fixed 9Mbits/sec which is the slowest OFDM rate. Most of the clients
would then connect almost randomly between the access points. I
really don't know how well it worked in practice because a week later,
I replace the 802.11b access points with all 802.11g access points.

>I can't connect to any of the Bs but CAN
>connect to the Gs.

Well, with identical SSID's on the access points, you should *NOT* be
able to select which access point you connect. How are you making
this connection selection?

>Do you think I need to change my Authentication
>Method from "Open" to "shared"?

No, open is more secure.

--
Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

> You didn't mention that they all had the same SSID. With all the
> SSID's identical, you have zero control over which access point your
> client will connect. Most, if not all, client software does not offer
> you a selection of SSID/MAC addresses, just a selection of SSID.

Ok

>
> Incidentally, how do you know that you're connecting to the "g" and
> not the "b" AP's if all the access points use the same SSID? By the
> MAC address? By the speed?
>

I have a (graphically) neat little Toshiba software program called
Configfree which has this radar-like screen showing all the APs in
range. It gives their MAC address, b/g setting, etc etc. But when I
try to connect, it doesn't let me go to the b's, probably for the
reason you stated above.

> I've seen this before and I don't think it's fixable. The problem is
> that the "philosphy" of the driver writers is to always use the
> fastest connection possible.

That's great..even if it's the weakest??

>
> I temporarily "solved" (kludged) a similar derrangement of mixed
> access points by setting the speed on the 802.11g access points to a
> fixed 9Mbits/sec which is the slowest OFDM rate. Most of the clients
> would then connect almost randomly between the access points. I
> really don't know how well it worked in practice because a week later,
> I replace the 802.11b access points with all 802.11g access points.

Client side, I suppose I could always try and find a way to shut off
the g capabilities of the client when I know I'm in a strong b / weak g
area.

Thanks for your help!

On 18 Dec 2005 02:39:26 -0800, "[none]" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>I have a (graphically) neat little Toshiba software program called
>Configfree which has this radar-like screen showing all the APs in
>range. It gives their MAC address, b/g setting, etc etc. But when I
>try to connect, it doesn't let me go to the b's, probably for the
>reason you stated above.

Config Free is actually a nifty program for fixing network problems.
The radar display shows the strongest access points near the center
and the weaker near the edge. I never could get auto-switch to work
right for more. There were some updates recently to fix some
Bluetooth problems. You might wanna check for updates for your
unspecified model laptop:
http://www.csd.toshiba.com/cgi-bin/t...sc_modSel.jsp?

>> I've seen this before and I don't think it's fixable. The problem is
>> that the "philosphy" of the driver writers is to always use the
>> fastest connection possible.
>
>That's great..even if it's the weakest??

Some day, I'll learn to spell philosophy.

I think so (not sure). When the client radio is in the 802.11g mode,
it will not hear 802.11b access points. Same when in the 802.11b
mode. It won't hear 802.11g access points. It has to intentionally
"scan" for access points. All it takes is for the client software to
force the mode to 802.11g and it's deaf to anything that's stuck on
802.11b.

My guess(tm) is that the Toshiba driver is scanning for access points
starting with the highest speed and protocol possible. The radar like
display might show two access points with the same SSID as different
target access points. However, when your client scans downward in
speed, and sees the highest speed access points with the correct SSID,
it will stop and connect without ever continuing downward in speed.
This is what 802.11n is suppose to address, but I suspect they too
don't want to deal with 802.11b "legacy" hardware and operate much in
the same way. Again, this is my guess(tm) and may not be the way it
works. You can prove the point by temporarily changing the SSID of
one of these access points to something else and see if your small
Toshiba magically connects.

>Client side, I suppose I could always try and find a way to shut off
>the g capabilities of the client when I know I'm in a strong b / weak g
>area.

I don't think that's possible. The access point controls the speed
and mode of the client. What is possible is that you can disarm
Config Free and use Windoze Wireless Zero Config. There's a setting
in Config Free to "Start when Windoze Starts" or something similar.
Uncheck, reboot, right click on the wireless device icon in the system
tray, select "Show Available Networks" and see if things work better.
I don't think it will help, but it's worth a try just in case Config
Free is causing the problem.

Any more clues such as the model of your laptop, Windoze operating
system version, and whether it has SP2 installed? Do these multiple
access points have some type of load balancing scheme going such as:
http://www.autocell.com

--
Jeff Liebermann (E-Mail Removed)
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558