802.11b Wireless Connection using an omni directional antenna with 7km range!

Please only reply after reading this and tell me if you believe it is
possible.
I have spoken with the tech support guy from this company and he tells
me it SHOULD work.

The wireless Router/Bridge is from a Canadian company call
WAVERIDER... here is the link with the specs.

http://www.waverider.com/pdfs/NCL1170.PDF

btw.. this thing costs ($1000)

They say that the range using an OMNI-DIRECTIONAL (High Gain
of-course) antenna can give you 7km range.

Here is my PROBLEM.... I need just over 6km range BUT there is a LOT
of TALL , HUGE trees along the way.

I suggested this idea... and they said that it SHOULD work. I would
like to hear your opinions. BTW - I know using parabolic antennas is
the proper way to link sights this far away... but it is IMPOSSIBLE to
get a tower (that can be climbed) that high here.

My idea is to get a HIGEST GAIN possible omnidirectional antenna and
mount it to a very tall pole and then mount that pole on top of a huge
barn. Getting the antenna OVER the trees (damn trees!). Then using the
same combination at my other location.... OR (if that doesn't
work)..... using a Yagi antenna (maybe even the 10" cAntenna III from
http://www.etherdesigns.com/pages/1/index.htm) to pick up the signal
from the omni directional antenna at location 1.

Do you think this would work.... Please only reply if you KNOW for
SURE. Has this EVER been attempted before???? Any help would be
GREATLY appreciated.

BTW: if this DOES work...... do I have to buy these EXPENSIVE
routers... or would just an ordinanry WAP11 / WAP54 do the same thing.

Thanks! (cross my fingers)

Kingz#1 wrote:

> Please only reply after reading this and tell me if you believe it is
> possible.
> I have spoken with the tech support guy from this company and he tells
> me it SHOULD work.
>
> The wireless Router/Bridge is from a Canadian company call
> WAVERIDER... here is the link with the specs.
>
> http://www.waverider.com/pdfs/NCL1170.PDF
>
> btw.. this thing costs ($1000)
>
> They say that the range using an OMNI-DIRECTIONAL (High Gain
> of-course) antenna can give you 7km range.
>
> Here is my PROBLEM.... I need just over 6km range BUT there is a LOT
> of TALL , HUGE trees along the way.
>
> I suggested this idea... and they said that it SHOULD work. I would
> like to hear your opinions. BTW - I know using parabolic antennas is
> the proper way to link sights this far away... but it is IMPOSSIBLE to
> get a tower (that can be climbed) that high here.
>
> My idea is to get a HIGEST GAIN possible omnidirectional antenna and
> mount it to a very tall pole and then mount that pole on top of a huge
> barn. Getting the antenna OVER the trees (damn trees!). Then using the
> same combination at my other location.... OR (if that doesn't
> work)..... using a Yagi antenna (maybe even the 10" cAntenna III from
> http://www.etherdesigns.com/pages/1/index.htm) to pick up the signal
> from the omni directional antenna at location 1.
>
> Do you think this would work.... Please only reply if you KNOW for
> SURE. Has this EVER been attempted before???? Any help would be
> GREATLY appreciated.
>
> BTW: if this DOES work...... do I have to buy these EXPENSIVE
> routers... or would just an ordinanry WAP11 / WAP54 do the same thing.
>
> Thanks! (cross my fingers)

In the immortal words of Bill Clinton, it depends on what your definition
of trees is. 2.4 GHz radio waves will penetrate a leaf or two -- but not
a tree trunk, unless you are pumping out enough energy to kill people as
well as trees.

If both ends of the proposed link have acess to the internet, you may
want to consider a software solution instead of hardware: create a VPN
over the internet.
--
Cheers, Bob

In article <(E-Mail Removed) >,
Kingz#1 <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
:My idea is to get a HIGEST GAIN possible omnidirectional antenna and
:mount it to a very tall pole and then mount that pole on top of a huge
:barn. Getting the antenna OVER the trees (damn trees!). Then using the
:same combination at my other location....

o you think this would work.... Please only reply if you KNOW for
:SURE.

I know for sure that I would investigate the size of the Fresnel
Zone that would be needed in this situation. Considering the distance
you may have to push the antennae even higher than you were thinking.
--
Caution: A subset of the statements in this message may be
tautologically true.

What you need is a directional antenna, not an omnidirectional. An
omnidirectional is the kind you would use inside a house or building. The
antenna would have a gain of only a couple dB.

"Kingz#1" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed) om...
> Please only reply after reading this and tell me if you believe it is
> possible.
> I have spoken with the tech support guy from this company and he tells
> me it SHOULD work.
>
> The wireless Router/Bridge is from a Canadian company call
> WAVERIDER... here is the link with the specs.
>
> http://www.waverider.com/pdfs/NCL1170.PDF
>
> btw.. this thing costs ($1000)
>
> They say that the range using an OMNI-DIRECTIONAL (High Gain
> of-course) antenna can give you 7km range.
>
> Here is my PROBLEM.... I need just over 6km range BUT there is a LOT
> of TALL , HUGE trees along the way.
>
> I suggested this idea... and they said that it SHOULD work. I would
> like to hear your opinions. BTW - I know using parabolic antennas is
> the proper way to link sights this far away... but it is IMPOSSIBLE to
> get a tower (that can be climbed) that high here.
>
> My idea is to get a HIGEST GAIN possible omnidirectional antenna and
> mount it to a very tall pole and then mount that pole on top of a huge
> barn. Getting the antenna OVER the trees (damn trees!). Then using the
> same combination at my other location.... OR (if that doesn't
> work)..... using a Yagi antenna (maybe even the 10" cAntenna III from
> http://www.etherdesigns.com/pages/1/index.htm) to pick up the signal
> from the omni directional antenna at location 1.
>
> Do you think this would work.... Please only reply if you KNOW for
> SURE. Has this EVER been attempted before???? Any help would be
> GREATLY appreciated.
>
> BTW: if this DOES work...... do I have to buy these EXPENSIVE
> routers... or would just an ordinanry WAP11 / WAP54 do the same thing.
>
> Thanks! (cross my fingers)

(E-Mail Removed) (Kingz#1) wrote in
news:(E-Mail Removed) om:

> Please only reply after reading this and tell me if you believe it is
> possible.
> I have spoken with the tech support guy from this company and he tells
> me it SHOULD work.
>
> The wireless Router/Bridge is from a Canadian company call
> WAVERIDER... here is the link with the specs.
>
> http://www.waverider.com/pdfs/NCL1170.PDF
>
> btw.. this thing costs ($1000)
>
> They say that the range using an OMNI-DIRECTIONAL (High Gain
> of-course) antenna can give you 7km range.
>
> Here is my PROBLEM.... I need just over 6km range BUT there is a LOT
> of TALL , HUGE trees along the way.
>
> I suggested this idea... and they said that it SHOULD work. I would
> like to hear your opinions. BTW - I know using parabolic antennas is
> the proper way to link sights this far away... but it is IMPOSSIBLE to
> get a tower (that can be climbed) that high here.
>
> My idea is to get a HIGEST GAIN possible omnidirectional antenna and
> mount it to a very tall pole and then mount that pole on top of a huge
> barn. Getting the antenna OVER the trees (damn trees!). Then using the
> same combination at my other location.... OR (if that doesn't
> work)..... using a Yagi antenna (maybe even the 10" cAntenna III from
> http://www.etherdesigns.com/pages/1/index.htm) to pick up the signal
> from the omni directional antenna at location 1.
>
> Do you think this would work.... Please only reply if you KNOW for
> SURE. Has this EVER been attempted before???? Any help would be
> GREATLY appreciated.
>
> BTW: if this DOES work...... do I have to buy these EXPENSIVE
> routers... or would just an ordinanry WAP11 / WAP54 do the same thing.
>
> Thanks! (cross my fingers)

If the antenna'a are both above the treeline, and there is adequate
fresnal clearance, this should probably work. With high gain directional
antennas instead of omni's. You're plan would make me believe you needed
a point to point link, unless you wanted to offer access to other's off
in different directions.

The problem with getting the antenna's up really high is that the loss
thru the coax is really high so the radio would need to be on the mast
with the antenna to keep the run as short as possible. PoE would be
required in this instance.

The product pdf you linked said the max range was 25 miles. Is that $1000
ea, as you'd need 2, 2 cables, 2 antenna's, etc. ? This is more of a
commercial type radio. If you were going to spend that much money, I'd
look into something with an integrated radio/antenna that has PoE and
simplify the whole thing. No need for expensive low-loss coax.

And by the way, the product info says nothing about 802.11b. I'm pretty
sure it all proprietary.

So what your telling me is.................... It CAN be done. If I go
high enough. hmmmmm.... how high can maple trees grow???? Think 150ft
high will do the trick. Plus... I think the Router has to be within
like 6ft of the antenna too or else I would lose dB power. Would that
mean my router would be up in the air too? How good do amplifiers
work? I found a place that sells 1w and 2w amps. They cost like $400
though. If I have to... I will get them. Whatever it takes.

(E-Mail Removed) (Walter Roberson) wrote in message news:<cb7juo$3ka$(E-Mail Removed)>...
> In article <(E-Mail Removed) >,
> Kingz#1 <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> :My idea is to get a HIGEST GAIN possible omnidirectional antenna and
> :mount it to a very tall pole and then mount that pole on top of a huge
> :barn. Getting the antenna OVER the trees (damn trees!). Then using the
> :same combination at my other location....
>
> o you think this would work.... Please only reply if you KNOW for
> :SURE.
>
> I know for sure that I would investigate the size of the Fresnel
> Zone that would be needed in this situation. Considering the distance
> you may have to push the antennae even higher than you were thinking.

On 21 Jun 2004 20:19:25 -0700, Kingz#1 wrote:

> So what your telling me is.................... It CAN be done. If I go
> high enough. hmmmmm.... how high can maple trees grow???? Think 150ft
> high will do the trick. Plus... I think the Router has to be within
> like 6ft of the antenna too or else I would lose dB power. Would that
> mean my router would be up in the air too? How good do amplifiers
> work? I found a place that sells 1w and 2w amps. They cost like $400
> though. If I have to... I will get them. Whatever it takes.
>

People have been putting an access point up on the mast, at the focus of a
parabolic antenna, and running ethernet cat5 cable, and low voltage power
up to it. The cable losses are pretty much eliminated, and the design is
simpler. Connect the access point to a router and you're good to go.

Here are some sites to start you off:

http://www.manuka.orcon.net.nz/usbscoop.jpg
http://www.manuka.orcon.net.nz/roofscan.jpg
http://www.usbwifi.orcon.net.nz/

Hope that helps
--
Barry

In article <(E-Mail Removed) >,
Kingz#1 <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
:So what your telling me is.................... It CAN be done. If I go
:high enough.

http://www.airaya.com/support/ai108_path.asp

http://www.zytrax.com/tech/wireless/fresnel.htm
http://www.zytrax.com/tech/wireless/calc.htm#fresnel
--
Suppose there was a test you could take that would report whether
you had Free Will or were Pre-Destined. Would you take the test?

I've read this thread to date. Interesting. But:

Nobody's mentioned (IIRC) any environmental conditions other than
foliage that might attenuate this long-throw signal, such as snow, rain,
and perhaps even heavy fog. The higher the frequency at any given power,
the more easily attenuated... You might want to be sure you understand
such factors and how often they're present, and whether, with whatever
gear you elect to use, you'll always have that link available.

Also, with a directional antenna that's carefully focused, any slightest
movement of the mast or tower at either end, in wind for example, might
interrupt things.

Kingz#1 wrote:
> Please only reply after reading this and tell me if you believe it is
> possible.
> I have spoken with the tech support guy from this company and he tells
> me it SHOULD work.
>
> The wireless Router/Bridge is from a Canadian company call
> WAVERIDER... here is the link with the specs.
>
> http://www.waverider.com/pdfs/NCL1170.PDF
>
> btw.. this thing costs ($1000)
>
> They say that the range using an OMNI-DIRECTIONAL (High Gain
> of-course) antenna can give you 7km range.
>
> Here is my PROBLEM.... I need just over 6km range BUT there is a LOT
> of TALL , HUGE trees along the way.
>
> I suggested this idea... and they said that it SHOULD work. I would
> like to hear your opinions. BTW - I know using parabolic antennas is
> the proper way to link sights this far away... but it is IMPOSSIBLE to
> get a tower (that can be climbed) that high here.
>
> My idea is to get a HIGEST GAIN possible omnidirectional antenna and
> mount it to a very tall pole and then mount that pole on top of a huge
> barn. Getting the antenna OVER the trees (damn trees!). Then using the
> same combination at my other location.... OR (if that doesn't
> work)..... using a Yagi antenna (maybe even the 10" cAntenna III from
> http://www.etherdesigns.com/pages/1/index.htm) to pick up the signal
> from the omni directional antenna at location 1.
>
> Do you think this would work.... Please only reply if you KNOW for
> SURE. Has this EVER been attempted before???? Any help would be
> GREATLY appreciated.
>
> BTW: if this DOES work...... do I have to buy these EXPENSIVE
> routers... or would just an ordinanry WAP11 / WAP54 do the same thing.
>
> Thanks! (cross my fingers)



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